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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 22:39:05 GMT -5
Myth is OK if you thought it will prove your agenda. All religion IS Myth (by strict definition of the word). Being a myth doesn't make an individual's belief true OR false.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 17, 2014 22:49:01 GMT -5
Going back to the original topic though - of hate & bigotry - this is what Alyssa posted in #12, stating it's ALL religious-based, which is categorically untrue.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Nov 17, 2014 23:31:16 GMT -5
One of the last century great minds( don't recall who) said something along the lines of :" space and ignorance know no bounds! Hopefully, someday throug research and perseverance we will reach the limits of space!" that right there says it all. Ignorance is unlimited and keeps on coming. Ignorance breeds dislike and hate and all we can do is try to educate those that are showing ignorance. However, we all have the inherent right to think and express ourselves freely. This subject- hate/dislike of certain people or all people- is a fundamental issue and a continuous contradiction: you have the right to think it and say it but is wrong to do it morally and legally. Some people choose to act on their impulses and some choose to educate themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 20:49:25 GMT -5
Going back to the original topic though - of hate & bigotry - this is what Alyssa posted in #12, stating it's ALL religious-based, which is categorically untrue. I disagree. BUT, I read it differently than I think you did. I didn't read her saying that all religious people hate gays or that all religions hate gays... but... I read her as saying "where intolerance exists, if you track it back to it's source, it is religious in nature" If you know of another source of "gay hate", I'd be interested in hearing of it.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 18, 2014 21:37:57 GMT -5
Ignorance. Fear. Hate. The same things that fuel all bigotry.
None of those things are taught in church...at least not any church that I've ever been to. And I've been to a few.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 18, 2014 21:38:48 GMT -5
I'm not the one debating - but I challenged maya to cite sourses that can irrefutably back up her claim that it's a FACT that ALL hate and bigotry toward gay people is religious based.
She hasn't replied, so I'm assuming she can't find one to support/supply anything to back up her claim.
Atheists and Agnostics, non-believers, are equally capable of promoting hatred - even if they've never stepped inside a church or been exposed to any religion. So her claim that it's ALL religion-based is so far off the mark.
But this thread originally about "Equal Rights for All"... religion wasn't even a part of the discussion as far as equal rights or bigotry are concerned, until patstab brought it up in post #28.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 22:16:04 GMT -5
Ignorance. Fear. Hate. The same things that fuel all bigotry.
None of those things are taught in church...at least not any church that I've ever been to. And I've been to a few.
LOL... All of those things are taught in every church I've ever attended. (granted the last one I REGULARLY attended, as a member of the congregation, was over 20 years ago... but it still counts as attendance!)
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 18, 2014 22:33:00 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear that. If that's the message you were getting, I can't think why you would have "regularly" attended there. No question there are bad apples.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 19, 2014 0:31:10 GMT -5
ETA at the beginning: GEL-I believe you know all this and it is not directed toward you. I just replied to the most recent post here. Green Eyed Lady - I can tell you some churches in the Memphis area rail against homosexuality on a regular basis. It is a fact of life here. One of the problems with churches condemning homosexuality, at least within the black community here and elsewhere, is the high rate of HIV/AIDS among men and women. Because the black churches condemn homosexuality, and some of the men are afraid their families would find out their sexual preference for qmembers of their own gender and disown them, these men partake in discreet sexual relations with other men, some who have unknowingly contracted HIV from past trysts, and then these men unknowingly pass along the HIV virus through sexual relations to unsuspecting women, having to prove to their family and friends they like women. I imagine you have heard about the controversy regarding gay conversion therapy and what it supposedly does and most often, doesn't do. While there are any number of secular gay conversion therapy groups and individual psychologists promoting gay conversion therapy, there are a number of them run by religious groups. Their sole purpose is to change homosexual men and women to heterosexual men and women as it's 'God's plan for them' even though there was nothing wrong with these men and women in the first place. It should be noted many of these 'patients' attending gay conversion therapy were and are teens who were forced to attend by the parents. Results are at best temporary, if anything changes at all, with many patients leaving confused and psychologically damaged upon exit. Here are a few of them in the U.S. with strong religious overtones and the religious sect running them. All Faiths with focus on Christianity Exodus Global AllianceCatholics Courage InternationalLDS Church North Star InternationalJewish Faith Jonah InternationalCatholics and Protestants Joel 2:25 InternationalProtestant OneByOneThen you have American ministers like Scott Lively from my home town of Springfield, Massachusetts. Anti-gay to his core, he travelled to Uganda and working with some Ugandan government officials and ministers, helped them pass an anti-gay bill there which originally called for the death penalty of anyone convicted of having homosexual relations. The penalty was revised and now the penalty for partaking in homosexual sex in Uganda is life in prison. While Lively in Uganda has nothing to do with hate and intolerance in the U.S., it is some of our own religious folks taking their hate and intolerance overseas to less informed countries because they are losing the battle here. There are many churches and synagogues which do publicly welcome gays and lesbians and preach inclusion and acceptance within their church. It still is bad in some areas but definitely getting better in many others.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 19, 2014 10:08:27 GMT -5
I don't dispute that at all, Tenn. Just that everybody isn't like that. And, most certainly, not all church people are like that. As I stated earlier in this thread, I know quite a few athiests and agnostics that don't even want homosexuals on this Earth. Hate and ignorance knows no race, gender, political party, etc. I won't stand by and watch all "church people" branded in this manner. It's simply ignorant. Some are. No question about that. Most aren't.
For those who seem to have bad experiences with churches....I guess I really don't know what to say because it just hasn't been my experience. If a person is interested in attending services, I guess they should shop around until they find one whos message is to love one another. Perhaps its a case of where you live. I don't know. I honestly do not know of one single church anywhere near me that preaches a message of hate and I have never attended a church service that even mentioned homosexuality. I guess I've just been lucky.
Branding all people who espouse a faith is no different than branding all Black people as criminals, or all Hispanics as lazy, or all blondes as stupid, etc,etc,etc. It's just as ugly and because it doesn't hit everyone where they live doesn't make it less ugly. We can't ask that everyone be accepting and loving unless we are willing to give the same in return. And yes. That means even toward those who think differently than we do. A message of hate is a message of hate - regardless of whom it is aimed at.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 19, 2014 12:12:38 GMT -5
My MIL's church ended up with a minister once that went off the deep end. Railed against homosexuals, African Americans, Mexicans, Catholics he went on and on. I kinda wish I had been there to see that. He was quickly transferred elsewhere. MIL said everyone's jaws hit the floor as soon as he opened his mouth and they sat there in stunned silence. He lasted a good 45 minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 20:59:50 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear that. If that's the message you were getting, I can't think why you would have "regularly" attended there. No question there are bad apples. Oh this wasn't cases of "bad apples". Intolerance, fear and hatred are pretty much required in Christianity. Preachers/pastors/clergy jjust put such an amazing amount of spin on it that the faithful just don't see it for what it truly is. Look at thoughts such as: "Teach them not to sin" and "Show them that God's way is the right way, and that we don't want them to burn in the eternal fires of damnation, we want to save them". Looks like a positive message... doesn't it? Until you see how it looks from someone that doesn't believe: "Teach them to deny who/what they are, for they are an abomination before God" and "Show them that their beliefs are wrong, only ours are right, and they will burn in hell if they don't believe as we do."
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 20, 2014 9:16:41 GMT -5
Oh, please, Richard. Don't sit there and try to say what people see and what they don't see. I'm not sure where you get off pretending that you are the only one who sees the truth while the rest of us are just sheep following along. You think way too much of yourself. If you don't want to believe - that's fine with me. I don't much care. "Eternal fires of damnation" has not once been mentioned in my church or any that I have attended. Others may believe that since you are able to write complete sentences that you know what you are talking about. I know you haven't a clue.
I know what the Bible says, Richard. I've actually read it a few times. I don't sit at my computer and google for a verse that fits the point I'm trying to make. I have them in my head and in my heart. Even someone who does believe has questions about what is written, Richard. Even someone who does believe may disagree or take exception with some things that are written. What someone who does believe knows is that we are to love one another. That includes people who are different than us. Is that a contradiction? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. But I know what is in my heart and that is love and compassion and tolerance. I know I was taught that at home and in church. I rarely fail in my mission to treat others as I would like to be treated, but it does happen....especially with those who spout off at the mouth about something they are quite ignorant of.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 19:58:20 GMT -5
Oh, please, Richard. Don't sit there and try to say what people see and what they don't see. I'm not sure where you get off pretending that you are the only one who sees the truth while the rest of us are just sheep following along. You think way too much of yourself. If you don't want to believe - that's fine with me. I don't much care. "Eternal fires of damnation" has not once been mentioned in my church or any that I have attended. Others may believe that since you are able to write complete sentences that you know what you are talking about. I know you haven't a clue. I know what the Bible says, Richard. I've actually read it a few times. I don't sit at my computer and google for a verse that fits the point I'm trying to make. I have them in my head and in my heart. Even someone who does believe has questions about what is written, Richard. Even someone who does believe may disagree or take exception with some things that are written. What someone who does believe knows is that we are to love one another. That includes people who are different than us. Is that a contradiction? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. But I know what is in my heart and that is love and compassion and tolerance. I know I was taught that at home and in church. I rarely fail in my mission to treat others as I would like to be treated, but it does happen....especially with those who spout off at the mouth about something they are quite ignorant of. I was a VERY devout Christian up until my early 20's... and have read (and am well versed in, pardon the pun) the Bible too. I'll just leave your post alone except correcting your error: I am not ignorant of what's in the Bible. You just believe me to be because my experience hasn't mirrored yours. I've yet to need to Google a Biblical reference myself, for my own needs... I only do so to allow me to provide a link to those that don't believe me (because, I'm an Agnostic, so, how can I POSSIBLY know anything about the Bible? ? ? ? ? ? ?) when I say "such and such is in the Bible". If you'd like to take this over to the religion sub-forum... just say the word.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 20, 2014 21:44:33 GMT -5
I was going to suggest if the discussion was going to turn into a debate who knows more about Christianity or the Bible, that the thread be moved to the more suitable "Religious Discussion" board.
The thread title was "What's with all the hate? Equal Rights for All."
We were discussing discrimination and hatred toward people due to their race, gender, or sexual preference (Gays).
Religion hadn't even been brought into it until Alyssa posted in Reply #12, that: And that statement is so far off the mark and inaccurate/untrue, it doesn't deserve a response.
(Yes, there are certain sects of the Christian church (and other faiths), that promote bigotry or hatred - but that wasn't the original discussion) I stated earlier that Agnostics and Atheists are equally capable of hate - but so are so-called Christians. Atheists and Agnostics are also equally (and in many cases more) tolerable of all society.
Like @richardintn, I consider myself more of an Agnostic now than a "church-goer". I'm neither a non-believer or an Athiest, but I'm also not a Bible Thumper - I follow my own moral compass.
I attended church regularly with my family until I was about 17 or 18. Then I decided on following the path I want to follow, and carry with me any beliefs I have or not. I'm still the same person I was when I was a church-goer, and still hold the same values & respect for ALL that people I did then, but I don't need to carry any religion on my sleeve to be an upstanding and respecting member of society.
I attempted to sway the topic back to what the title was aimed at, but since then, it's once again mostly a couple of people arguing about who knows more about the Bible.
If it can't stay on topic (Hate vs Equal Rights for ALL), instead of who's better at quoting Bible verses, maybe the "Religious Discussion" board is a better slot for this thread.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 20, 2014 22:23:17 GMT -5
Nobody is arguing about who knows more about the Bible, SL. I'm certainly not. I'm arguing against painting a group of people with the same brush and the ignorance of doing so - just as you were doing. I simply stated that I don't need to be told what the Bible says. I already know. Please don't pretend to tell me what to do and where to post. Once religion is brought up, it's debatable - especially when someone is casting aspersions. If that's going to be allowed - rebuttal should be allowed. Besides, I'd rather see somebody actually debating something rather than posting the same damn post like 900 times in each thread like you do. Don't attempt to police me. There are actual mods for that and I will, of course, abide by their wishes. Thank you.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 20, 2014 22:48:03 GMT -5
<Le Sigh> I'm not going to argue this with you GEL. You missed my point entirely. You're getting angry/hostile with me now, the same as you did with @richardintn.
I hadn't even commented to you directly.
YOU are the one who keeps on bringing up who knows more about the Bible. As I said, this thread is now more suited to the "Religious Discussions" board if you want to keep taking it down that path. It's so far off topic now (Equal Rights, and bigotry toward races or gays) and you were arguing with Richard about who knows more about the BIBLE. Your mind is obviously made up and closed.
I wasn't even debating with you so don't even drag me into your fight with him just because I happen to agree with him .
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 20, 2014 22:56:43 GMT -5
Please copy these alleged posts where I "keep bringing up" who knows more about the Bible. I believe I mentioned the Bible ONE TIME and that is after Richard quoted scripture. I'll wait. If I "keep" bringing it up, it should be there and I'll delete all these repeated references.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 21, 2014 1:05:21 GMT -5
Read your own reply #45 to @richardintn (above). You are accusing him of only Googling and espousing that he's claiming to be the only one who sees the truth. There is no "truth" - in the technical term. You either believe, don't believe, or question what's preached and seek answers and draw your own conclusions. You GEL, are set in your ways, and have closed up to other people's points of view.
How do you "assume" that richard "googled" verses - he may well have them memorized as well as you (or me, for that matter). You accuse richard (and maybe me) of being ignorant and spouting off at the mouth. How do you know just how much time in our lives we've spent in organized religion enough to reach our own conclusions? YOU are the one who's showing intolerance for OUR opinion.
This is the reason the thread should be moved. It's gone so far off-topic now and on to you fighting to prove you're more "Christian" than we who disagree with you. In fact, you're getting quite hostile. Oh, please, Richard. Don't sit there and try to say what people see and what they don't see. I'm not sure where you get off pretending that you are the only one who sees the truth while the rest of us are just sheep following along. You think way too much of yourself. If you don't want to believe - that's fine with me. I don't much care. "Eternal fires of damnation" has not once been mentioned in my church or any that I have attended. Others may believe that since you are able to write complete sentences that you know what you are talking about. I know you haven't a clue. I know what the Bible says, Richard. I've actually read it a few times. I don't sit at my computer and google for a verse that fits the point I'm trying to make. I have them in my head and in my heart. Even someone who does believe has questions about what is written, Richard. Even someone who does believe may disagree or take exception with some things that are written. What someone who does believe knows is that we are to love one another. That includes people who are different than us. Is that a contradiction? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. But I know what is in my heart and that is love and compassion and tolerance. I know I was taught that at home and in church. I rarely fail in my mission to treat others as I would like to be treated, but it does happen....especially with those who spout off at the mouth about something they are quite ignorant of.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 21, 2014 9:17:21 GMT -5
So what if I am getting hostile? People sometimes get hostile when others direct attacks (ignorant ones at that) at something that hits close to home. Again, you cannot back up your post about how I "keep bringing up the Bible", which is nothing unusual. You usually do go on and on about something that isn't really there. That's really nothing new. Your posts directed at me are ridiculous and have nothing to do with what's really been said - and that's nothing unusual either. I've said what I had to say. I'm sure you'll post another 900 times saying the same inacccurate things and that's fine by me. I've seen you stalk posters making wild accusations about what they have said and what they haven't said since the day I joined this board. You'll not find me quite as easy a victim.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 21, 2014 9:25:44 GMT -5
I see no reason, at this point, to move this thread to Religious Discussions. Religion, or the bible may come up from time to time in discussions. There's no problem with that. The problems start when posters begin quoting scripture and proselytizing or battling over who has the ONLY answer as to how to live one's life. That will not be tolerated. Nor, will an ongoing battle about who knows the bible and who doesn't. Just keep it civil and state your views with regard to the subject of the thread, please.
mmhmm, Administrator
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 19:14:36 GMT -5
Please copy these alleged posts where I "keep bringing up" who knows more about the Bible. I believe I mentioned the Bible ONE TIME and that is after Richard quoted scripture. I'll wait. If I "keep" bringing it up, it should be there and I'll delete all these repeated references. I haven't quoted scripture in this thread.... I don't think I have anyway. Please find me the message where I posted scripture, thanks (here's a hint, it will include a link to the scripture as it can be found on BibleGateway)
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