The Same Sex Marriage Tipping Point

[djAdvocate]

Republicans like Ted Cruz are STILL talking about turning this around, re-instituting gay marriage bans, and possibly amending the constitution.  with 59% national support for gay marriage, does anyone here see this as anything other than a pipe dream?

NOTE: within a week, we will be past the pivot point on this, as (10) more states have pending movement on this issue, and some of them, surely, are going to fall.

[Tennesseer]

Pipe dream.  It's over.  Just waiting for the fat lady's final aria.

I do see the level of support leveling off at this point and remain at its current level of support for some time.  Many of those who are conservative in respect to social issues, some of the older baby boomers, and many of what remains of the Greatest generation will continue not support it. 

[djAdvocate]

Scalia is a really bright guy, about case law.  in his dissent in the Lawrence -vs- Texas sodomy case, he pointed out that that ruling would lead inexorably to gay marriage:

www.scotusblog.com/2012/09/same-sex-marriage-symposium-justice-scalias-constitutional-case-for-gay-marriage/

and, if you look at the map above, that is precisely what happened.  that same year, Massachusetts got same sex marriage, and starting in 2008, at least one state has adopted that statute ever year.

[Value Buy]

Ok, but how many of the states ok'd gay marriage, rather than the Judge outlawing their laws against it?

Many of these states did not pass laws authorizing gay marriage. The court struck down their laws against it.

Big difference.

Of course, since it is authorized, as the older people die off everyone else will go along with it.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 9, 2014 19:29:27 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Ok, but how many of the states ok'd gay marriage, rather than the Judge outlawing their laws against it?

Many of these states did not pass laws authorizing gay marriage. The court struck down their laws against it.

Big difference.

Of course, since it is authorized, as the older people die off everyone else will go along with it.

only three states voted in same sex marriage.

but i am not sure that is a fair way of looking at it.  if you know that the tide is turning in your favor, you don't feel compelled to settle things at the ballot box.

here is a opposing question for you: how many states have recently put "defense of marriage" stuff on the ballot?

edit: which is the last state to succeed?  i think it was MD in 2010.  before that, it was CA in 2008 (that one i remember).

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2014 19:29:27 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Ok, but how many of the states ok'd gay marriage, rather than the Judge outlawing their laws against it?

Many of these states did not pass laws authorizing gay marriage. The court struck down their laws against it.

Big difference.

Of course, since it is authorized, as the older people die off everyone else will go along with it.

A law in violation of the Constitution is invalid anyway... so the fact that they were overturned is just a "correction".

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2014 19:29:27 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Ok, but how many of the states ok'd gay marriage, rather than the Judge outlawing their laws against it?

Many of these states did not pass laws authorizing gay marriage. The court struck down their laws against it.

Big difference.

Of course, since it is authorized, as the older people die off everyone else will go along with it.

VB-are you okay with Indiana now issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples?

[billisonboard]

Oct 9, 2014 20:22:05 GMT -5 @dayjawho said:

I'm curious about the older people and baby boomer opposition to gay marriage position. Are there stats on this? ...

www.gallup.com/poll/162398/sex-marriage-support-solidifies-above.aspx

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2014 20:35:00 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 9, 2014 20:22:05 GMT -5 @dayjawho said:

I'm curious about the older people and baby boomer opposition to gay marriage position. Are there stats on this? ...

www.gallup.com/poll/162398/sex-marriage-support-solidifies-above.aspx

Thanks, Billis.

[Value Buy]

Oct 9, 2014 19:39:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2014 19:29:27 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Ok, but how many of the states ok'd gay marriage, rather than the Judge outlawing their laws against it?

Many of these states did not pass laws authorizing gay marriage. The court struck down their laws against it.

Big difference.

Of course, since it is authorized, as the older people die off everyone else will go along with it.

VB-are you okay with Indiana now issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples?

Tenn, why the personal question? I made a legitimate comment on the issue. Many of the states are not in favor of gay marriage, and the Courts are ruling they must allow them.

Indiana was in this camp. The lower court ruled Indiana's law was unconstitutional, but would allow the state not to perform gay marriages until the Supreme Court ruled on the issue. Since the Supreme Court ruled they would not rule, the lower court ruling stood.

 If you are a really long term member of the old MSN  Politics board, you would know the answer to your question of me.

dj and others on the old boards convinced me to swing to the liberal view on this issue.

My feelings are mine, and I will say, I do not believe in gay marriage, but am not opposed to the legality of it, as I realize anything short of that is imposing on the rights of individuals.

I hope that makes sense to you.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2014 20:22:05 GMT -5 @dayjawho said:

I'm curious about the older people and baby boomer opposition to gay marriage position. Are there stats on this?  I'm close to 62, my husband is pushing 70, and we are 100% for it. Most of our friends/associates who have expressed an opinion either feel as we do, or are neutral. There are some that are opposed, but largely to the term marriage. There are the usual "not in MY America, by Gawd!" but they are still railing against the fact that blacks and women can vote as a general rule. 


We have gay friends who have been a couple longer than we have, and we've been together 40 years. How could it possibly be right that they can't enjoy the same rights that we do? 

I grew up in Texas.  I grew up knowing a lot of people in the gay community, including family.  I grew up hearing "Once a Texan, always a Texan".  Cruz shames Texas.

I wonder if he ever got that Canadian citizenship renounced. He was having sooo much trouble doing so. He was offered help. It seems he hasn't had time to take it. 

Remember-I said some baby boomers and many of the Greatest Generation. Not all of them.

And I read somewhere Cruz gave up his Canadian citizenship May 14 of this year.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2014 20:52:42 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 9, 2014 19:39:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

VB-are you okay with Indiana now issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples?

Tenn, why the personal question? I made a legitimate comment on the issue. Many of the states are not in favor of gay marriage, and the Courts are ruling they must allow them.

Indiana was in this camp. The lower court ruled Indiana's law was unconstitutional, but would allow the state not to perform gay marriages until the Supreme Court ruled on the issue. Since the Supreme Court ruled they would not rule, the lower court ruling stood.

 If you are a really long term member of the old MSN  Politics board, you would know the answer to your question of me.

dj and others on the old boards convinced me to swing to the liberal view on this issue.

My feelings are mine, and I will say, I do not believe in gay marriage, but am not opposed to the legality of it, as I realize anything short of that is imposing on the rights of individuals.

I hope that makes sense to you.

You live in Indiana. I would think it is a fair question. When it is Tennessee's turn, I will answer your question whether I am okaykwith it or not

Why the hesitancy?

[Value Buy]

Oct 9, 2014 20:59:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2014 20:52:42 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Tenn, why the personal question? I made a legitimate comment on the issue. Many of the states are not in favor of gay marriage, and the Courts are ruling they must allow them.

Indiana was in this camp. The lower court ruled Indiana's law was unconstitutional, but would allow the state not to perform gay marriages until the Supreme Court ruled on the issue. Since the Supreme Court ruled they would not rule, the lower court ruling stood.

 If you are a really long term member of the old MSN  Politics board, you would know the answer to your question of me.

dj and others on the old boards convinced me to swing to the liberal view on this issue.

My feelings are mine, and I will say, I do not believe in gay marriage, but am not opposed to the legality of it, as I realize anything short of that is imposing on the rights of individuals.

I hope that makes sense to you.

You live in Indiana. I would think it is a fair question. When it is Tennessee's turn, I will answer your question whether I am okaykwith it or not

Why the hesitancy?

what hesitancy?

If Indiana is now issuing licenses for gay marriages, and they are, and I am not opposed to the legality of a gay marriage, I do not see the hesitancy on my part.

Just because I do not believe in gay marriage, does not mean I must oppose it.

There might be a state's rights issue here, but if it actually intrudes on the rights of a person, I have to assume the personal rights of a citizen trumps state's rights.

Just so you know, I do have a Libertarian streak in me, as well as Tea Party and Republican.

And I firmly believe there is room for me in the Republican party with these views. 

[marvholly]

At 68 I am one of the ‘older’ people. I also have a gay marriage within the family.
The tipping point is LONG past.
IL just somewhat recently changed our law(s) to allow gay marriage. My relatives went to Iowa a year ago since it was allowed there then but NOT here. As long as at least a few states allow it people will just travel if/as needed.

[Value Buy]

Oct 10, 2014 4:47:53 GMT -5 marvholly said:

At 68 I am one of the ‘older’ people. I also have a gay marriage within the family.
The tipping point is LONG past.
IL just somewhat recently changed our law(s) to allow gay marriage. My relatives went to Iowa a year ago since it was allowed there then but NOT here. As long as at least a few states allow it people will just travel if/as needed.

AND if you remember Illinois's argument was monetary. The argument was they were losing out on all those gay wedding cake orders and the reception party rentals, let alone the floral bouquets being sold by fellow gay floral shop owners.

Remember it was not an argument won by the moral issue. It was the monetary issue that was proffered forward.......

Could not lose the money to Wisconsin....

Speaking of relatives in families with gay marriages.....

even if we all do not have relatives that have taken the leap, we all have relatives that are in gay relationships, and I would think most family members understand the issue, and do not condemn these family members to purgatory, as in decades past. It is becoming an understandable relationship.

The times are a changing.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 10, 2014 6:45:59 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 10, 2014 4:47:53 GMT -5 marvholly said:

At 68 I am one of the ‘older’ people. I also have a gay marriage within the family.
The tipping point is LONG past.
IL just somewhat recently changed our law(s) to allow gay marriage. My relatives went to Iowa a year ago since it was allowed there then but NOT here. As long as at least a few states allow it people will just travel if/as needed.

AND if you remember Illinois's argument was monetary. The argument was they were losing out on all those gay wedding cake orders and the reception party rentals, let alone the floral bouquets being sold by fellow gay floral shop owners.

Remember it was not an argument won by the moral issue. It was the monetary issue that was proffered forward.......

Could not lose the money to Wisconsin....

Speaking of relatives in families with gay marriages.....

even if we all do not have relatives that have taken the leap, we all have relatives that are in gay relationships, and I would think most family members understand the issue, and do not condemn these family members to purgatory, as in decades past. It is becoming an understandable relationship.

The times are a changing.

Stereotyping? 

You forgot gay bridal shop and tuxedo rental shop owners along with gay bartenders and gay caterering business owners too.

 

[Value Buy]

Oct 10, 2014 8:21:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 10, 2014 6:45:59 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

AND if you remember Illinois's argument was monetary. The argument was they were losing out on all those gay wedding cake orders and the reception party rentals, let alone the floral bouquets being sold by fellow gay floral shop owners.

Remember it was not an argument won by the moral issue. It was the monetary issue that was proffered forward.......

Could not lose the money to Wisconsin....

Speaking of relatives in families with gay marriages.....

even if we all do not have relatives that have taken the leap, we all have relatives that are in gay relationships, and I would think most family members understand the issue, and do not condemn these family members to purgatory, as in decades past. It is becoming an understandable relationship.

The times are a changing.

Stereotyping? 

You forgot gay bridal shop and tuxedo rental shop owners along with gay bartenders and gay caterering business owners too.

 

No just pointing out the hypocrisy of Governor Quinn who could not push through the fight for gay marriage on it's merits. He and the Legislature could not win the fight on the actual legitimate issue, so they used the loss of money from Illinois citizens to a neighboring state.

This was their argument, not mine.

I do not stereotype any more than you and a few others do on the boards, but let's not make me the issue. This is the exact reason I did not really want to respond to your original question to me. You prefer to make the argument about the poster rather than on the item under discussion.

And since I expect a response from a mod now, this is the end of the discussion between the two of us, unless you want to discuss the issue at hand.

Thank you.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 10, 2014 8:31:34 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 10, 2014 8:21:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Stereotyping? 

You forgot gay bridal shop and tuxedo rental shop owners along with gay bartenders and gay caterering business owners too.

 

No just pointing out the hypocrisy of Governor Quinn who could not push through the fight for gay marriage on it's merits. He and the Legislature could not win the fight on the actual legitimate issue, so they used the loss of money from Illinois citizens to a neighboring state.

This was their argument, not mine.

I do not stereotype any more than you and a few others do on the boards, but let's not make me the issue. This is the exact reason I did not really want to respond to your original question to me. You prefer to make the argument about the poster rather than on the item under discussion.

And since I expect a response from a mod now, this is the end of the discussion between the two of us, unless you want to discuss the issue at hand.

Thank you.

I understsnd your position now. Completely.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 9, 2014 20:57:07 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2014 20:22:05 GMT -5 @dayjawho said:

I'm curious about the older people and baby boomer opposition to gay marriage position. Are there stats on this?  I'm close to 62, my husband is pushing 70, and we are 100% for it. Most of our friends/associates who have expressed an opinion either feel as we do, or are neutral. There are some that are opposed, but largely to the term marriage. There are the usual "not in MY America, by Gawd!" but they are still railing against the fact that blacks and women can vote as a general rule. 


We have gay friends who have been a couple longer than we have, and we've been together 40 years. How could it possibly be right that they can't enjoy the same rights that we do? 

I grew up in Texas.  I grew up knowing a lot of people in the gay community, including family.  I grew up hearing "Once a Texan, always a Texan".  Cruz shames Texas.

I wonder if he ever got that Canadian citizenship renounced. He was having sooo much trouble doing so. He was offered help. It seems he hasn't had time to take it. 

Remember-I said some baby boomers and many of the Greatest Generation. Not all of them.

And I read somewhere Cruz gave up his Canadian citizenship May 14 of this year.

he is such a dumbass.

[spartan7886]

Oct 9, 2014 19:33:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 9, 2014 19:29:27 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Ok, but how many of the states ok'd gay marriage, rather than the Judge outlawing their laws against it?

Many of these states did not pass laws authorizing gay marriage. The court struck down their laws against it.

Big difference.

Of course, since it is authorized, as the older people die off everyone else will go along with it.

only three states voted in same sex marriage.

but i am not sure that is a fair way of looking at it.  if you know that the tide is turning in your favor, you don't feel compelled to settle things at the ballot box.

here is a opposing question for you: how many states have recently put "defense of marriage" stuff on the ballot?

edit: which is the last state to succeed?  i think it was MD in 2010.  before that, it was CA in 2008 (that one i remember).

North Carolina passed an amendment to the state constitution in 2012 for one man/one woman. Mind you it was already a law, they just wanted to be doubly sure I guess.

[Deleted]

Gays account for 3.4% of the US population. (UCLA, last year) Why all the media and Internet hoopla over such a small minority? Whether they can "marry" or not is hardly an earth shaking problem. People really do need hobbies, and to mind their own business. Or is it being offered up as a distraction for the last couple of years with increased coverage, to distract from our presidents poor performance on the international stage?

[billisonboard]

Oct 10, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

... Or is it being offered up as a distraction for the last couple of years with increased coverage, ...?

You really think it is getting increased coverage these days over, say, during the passage of DOMA days?

[mmhmm]

Oct 10, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Gays account for 3.4% of the US population. (UCLA, last year) Why all the media and Internet hoopla over such a small minority? Whether they can "marry" or not is hardly an earth shaking problem. People really do need hobbies, and to mind their own business. Or is it being offered up as a distraction for the last couple of years with increased coverage, to distract from our presidents poor performance on the international stage?

Nah. Everything that takes it's proverbial moment in the sun doesn't do so for reasons that link back to each individual's pet bug-a-boo. 

[djAdvocate]

Oct 10, 2014 12:28:18 GMT -5 spartan7886 said:

Oct 9, 2014 19:33:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

only three states voted in same sex marriage.

but i am not sure that is a fair way of looking at it.  if you know that the tide is turning in your favor, you don't feel compelled to settle things at the ballot box.

here is a opposing question for you: how many states have recently put "defense of marriage" stuff on the ballot?

edit: which is the last state to succeed?  i think it was MD in 2010.  before that, it was CA in 2008 (that one i remember).

North Carolina passed an amendment to the state constitution in 2012 for one man/one woman. Mind you it was already a law, they just wanted to be doubly sure I guess.

ah.  that would explain the recent gyrations.  thanks.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 10, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Gays account for 3.4% of the US population. (UCLA, last year)

it might be as high as 10%, which is about the same as blacks, i believe. they are not a tiny minority.

Why all the media and Internet hoopla over such a small minority? Whether they can "marry" or not is hardly an earth shaking problem. People really do need hobbies, and to mind their own business. Or is it being offered up as a distraction for the last couple of years with increased coverage, to distract from our presidents poor performance on the international stage?

not in my opinion.  recall that Obama was a supporter of one man one woman during his campaign in 2008.  his position was still "evolving" in 2012.  this is not what i would call a strong advocate of gay rights, just someone who is swimming downstream. 

i would say that this is the latest front in the civil rights continuum.  the press has always been pretty good about covering these issues.

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2014 14:48:35 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 10, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Gays account for 3.4% of the US population. (UCLA, last year)

it might be as high as 10%, which is about the same as blacks, i believe. they are not a tiny minority.

Why all the media and Internet hoopla over such a small minority? Whether they can "marry" or not is hardly an earth shaking problem. People really do need hobbies, and to mind their own business. Or is it being offered up as a distraction for the last couple of years with increased coverage, to distract from our presidents poor performance on the international stage?

not in my opinion.  recall that Obama was a supporter of one man one woman during his campaign in 2008.  his position was still "evolving" in 2012.  this is not what i would call a strong advocate of gay rights, just someone who is swimming downstream. 

i would say that this is the latest front in the civil rights continuum.  the press has always been pretty good about covering these issues.

True, really didn't consider the civil rights thought process. From the Potus's point, it never looks bad to go along with what the mainstream wants anyway. One day, after the attention dies down. It will be looked upon as merely history, like the fervor surrounding the ERA movement.

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2014 14:48:35 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 10, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Gays account for 3.4% of the US population. (UCLA, last year)

it might be as high as 10%, which is about the same as blacks, i believe. they are not a tiny minority.

Why all the media and Internet hoopla over such a small minority? Whether they can "marry" or not is hardly an earth shaking problem. People really do need hobbies, and to mind their own business. Or is it being offered up as a distraction for the last couple of years with increased coverage, to distract from our presidents poor performance on the international stage?

not in my opinion.  recall that Obama was a supporter of one man one woman during his campaign in 2008.  his position was still "evolving" in 2012.  this is not what i would call a strong advocate of gay rights, just someone who is swimming downstream. 

i would say that this is the latest front in the civil rights continuum.  the press has always been pretty good about covering these issues.

Oops, missed your % statement. The polling showed only D.C. as having 10% as the high spot with the low in one of the Dakotas I think, at 1.7%. They did claim a population average at 3.4%.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 10, 2014 15:06:57 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Oct 10, 2014 14:48:35 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

not in my opinion.  recall that Obama was a supporter of one man one woman during his campaign in 2008.  his position was still "evolving" in 2012.  this is not what i would call a strong advocate of gay rights, just someone who is swimming downstream. 

i would say that this is the latest front in the civil rights continuum.  the press has always been pretty good about covering these issues.

Oops, missed your % statement. The polling showed only D.C. as having 10% as the high spot with the low in one of the Dakotas I think, at 1.7%. They did claim a population average at 3.4%.

you are using census data for that.  and that is fine.  but i think the census questions create a much stricter definition of "LGBT" than, say the Kinsley report on sexuality which was done in 1979.

in that report, a full 37% of men and 13% of women studied claimed that they had achieved "at least one same sex orgasm" in their lifetimes.  now, perhaps we can dismiss that activity as "youthful experimentation".  that's fine.  claim away.  but i think that it is not too much of a stretch to call such people bisexual at least.

but yes, by their own SELF DEFINITION, 3.4% of the adult population is LGBT.

[djAdvocate]

31 now, and quite a few more pending.  it is amazing what has happened just during Obama on this issue.

[Deleted]

I don't think this has anything to do with Obama... some of the Judges/Justices were Bush appointees, some were Clinton appointees, I think one was even a Carter appointee.


ETA: yes, some of the Judges/Justices were Obama appointees too. Didn't want to leave that out.