Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Apr 11, 2014 21:15:29 GMT -5
The worst part is that she was not provided any notice that her refund would be taken. It shouldn't be hard to find her address, she is a government worker.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Apr 12, 2014 7:56:58 GMT -5
This is another example of our government doing whatever they damn well please. People need to pay attention no matter what side of the aisle they favor. Even if the amount taken from someone would be only $100, this is the government seizing property/assets that they have no right to. What will they seize next? Our bank accounts? Our property? Our guns?
Do you feel more free or less free than you did in 2008? Answer the question and vote accordingly.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Apr 12, 2014 8:12:11 GMT -5
The IRS already seizes bank accounts.
What's next is the cattle being seized from the rancher in Nevada.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 12, 2014 9:16:24 GMT -5
I heard an update on the CBS News that Barbara Boxer and a senator from another state are working on some legislature that will ban SS from seeking repayment after 10 years.
I'd like it to extend to all government debt unless they can prove fraud. Children need to be able to settle their parents estates and not worry about what they may or may not have done.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 12, 2014 10:39:43 GMT -5
FWIW I agree with the opinions expressed by those on this thread.
NOW...
Can anyone explaine to me how this action (which we universally agree is abhorent) is any different from the government overspending to provide benefits/services today at a cost to tomorrows' generations? After all, the future generations do not have a say and did not enter into a contract to support this.
The SS administration "only" took $100 or so from this lady. How is that any different from the SS administration taxing my pay at (wait for it...)
30X's the rate that first existed when it was first passed? But that's not enough to feed to beast, there are proposals to increase the income levels subject to tax and the rates as well in addition to making it even more means tested then it currently is.
Why is robbery of a whole group of individuals in the form of "social insurance and income" taxes acceptable but expecting an adult to reimburse society for benefits consumed as a child not?
Government is slowely chipping away at our freedoms, bit by bit, including the freedom (no - right!) to enjoy the benefits of our labors.
At what point does it become unacceptable?
Those of us who actually pay income taxes now work (on average) three months and three weeks to pay our share of the US tax burden.
This is higher then it was during WWII. How long do we work at being a slave to others in the name of a "civilized society"?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 12, 2014 10:42:33 GMT -5
FWIW I agree with the opinions expressed by those on this thread.
NOW...
Can anyone explaine to me how this action (which we universally agree is abhorent) is any different from the government overspending to provide benefits/services today at a cost to tomorrows' generations? After all, the future generations do not have a say and did not enter into a contract to support this.
The SS administration "only" took $100 or so from this lady. How is that any different from the SS administration taxing my pay at (wait for it...)
30X's the rate that first existed when it was first passed? But that's not enough to feed to beast, there are proposals to increase the income levels subject to tax and the rates as well in addition to making it even more means tested then it currently is.
Why is robbery of a whole group of individuals in the form of "social insurance and income" taxes acceptable but expecting an adult to reimburse society for benefits consumed as a child not?
Government is slowely chipping away at our freedoms, bit by bit, including the freedom (no - right!) to enjoy the benefits of our labors.
At what point does it become unacceptable?
Those who actually pay income taxes now work (on average) three months and three weeks to pay our share of the US tax burden.
taxfoundation.org/article/tax-freedom-day-2014-april-21-three-days-later-last-year
This is higher then it was during WWII. How long do we work at being a slave to others in the name of a "civilized society"?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 12, 2014 11:03:44 GMT -5
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 12, 2014 11:10:15 GMT -5
Bonny - honestly, no. I watch very little news, most of my content comes from the Chicago Tribune, WSJ, and online media. I don't think the RedEye or The Onion count . You know I do taxes for a living so I also get (no kidding) at least a dozen different publications every week. The TaxFoundation is one I've subscribed to for over two decades now. In general I find them to be very bipartisan and to report accurately in a manner that can be confirmed (and often cited) by outside sources. They focus more on trends in taxation without (at least IMHO) being overly judgemental. Why do you ask? (Is Fox supposed to be conservative or something?)
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 12, 2014 11:21:52 GMT -5
Bonny - honestly, no. I watch very little news, most of my content comes from the Chicago Tribune, WSJ, and online media. I don't think the RedEye or The Onion count . You know I do taxes for a living so I also get (no kidding) at least a dozen different publications every week. The TaxFoundation is one I've subscribed to for over two decades now. In general I find them to be very bipartisan and to report accurately in a manner that can be confirmed (and often cited) by outside sources. They focus more on trends in taxation without (at least IMHO) being overly judgemental. Why do you ask? (Is Fox supposed to be conservative or something?) Just a little....
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 12, 2014 11:31:58 GMT -5
I guess you're allowed to hijack your own thread but you do risk having this moved over to the ranters and ravers over in Politics.
In 2012 we paid or had paid on our behalf $89k in US Federal taxes. I'm wasn't happy about that but after living in Germany I realize it could be worse.
I honestly don't know how you put the price on things like having a democratic government (imperfect as it is), mostly clean air and drinking water, maintaining a standing military, social services and everything we take for granted. I guess I know my choices are to go to an underground economy and take my chances or move to another country neither of which I want to do. Otherwise I try to do a little tax planning and hope for the best!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 12, 2014 11:32:57 GMT -5
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 12, 2014 11:36:45 GMT -5
I have a conservative cousin who was ranting the other day on Facebook about working and sacrificing while the lazy sat home collecting benefits like food stamps, Pell Grants, unemployment.
(In actuality she was a SAHM whose husband worked, but nevertheless).
She went on and on about how she was paying all those taxes and getting no benefit - at all.
I refrained from pointing out to her that her grandmother lived on welfare all her life while raising her mother and aunt.... Paid for by other taxpayers.....
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 12, 2014 12:10:56 GMT -5
I guess it's a good thing I'm not a Fox viewer, eh? I prefer to consider myself an independent and form my own opinions rather then have them fed to me by an increasingly agenda driven media.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 12, 2014 12:18:44 GMT -5
I guess you're allowed to hijack your own thread but you do risk having this moved over to the ranters and ravers over in Politics.
In 2012 we paid or had paid on our behalf $89k in US Federal taxes. I'm wasn't happy about that but after living in Germany I realize it could be worse.
I honestly don't know how you put the price on things like having a democratic government (imperfect as it is), mostly clean air and drinking water, maintaining a standing military, social services and everything we take for granted. I guess I know my choices are to go to an underground economy and take my chances or move to another country neither of which I want to do. Otherwise I try to do a little tax planning and hope for the best! As a tax professional I have to take exception to your lumping taxes in with politics . I will admit they are more related then they should be, but that was not the original intent nor should they be as intertwined as they are. I agree with the populace bearing some burden in order to have a democratic government, but my question is why do we consider forcing an individual to payback for services used by their parents abhorent, but have no problem asking our children to do the same in the form of ever increasing taxes on their future and call that the price of living in a civilized society? I think it's a legitimate question.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 12, 2014 14:51:25 GMT -5
Wellllllll
Since my Dad has been collecting SS since he was 60 (18 years ago) and is getting food stamps and Medicaid I'm pretty sure the taxes that DH and I have been paying during that same have been to support folks just like him.
And the best part? Dad is one of those people who watches Fox and goes on and on about those folks who suck the system dry!
ETA: I can't tell you how hard it is to keep my mouth shut after hearing over and over again about how the government "takes his money" and how if he had that money he could invest it so much better.
Ummmmm right. Let's see you nearly lost the house to foreclosure in 1979, filed BK in 1996 and would have also lost the house after my mother left had my brother not moved in and taken over the payments. Those events were directly attributable to their over investment and bad timing in the real estate market.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 16:50:36 GMT -5
When did social security benefit payments come repayable to the government? The child never signed anything to receive the benefits and they would have allegedly been the benefits accumulated by the parent that was deceased. I don't see how this can be accurate.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 12, 2014 17:44:27 GMT -5
When did social security benefit payments come repayable to the government? The child never signed anything to receive the benefits and they would have allegedly been the benefits accumulated by the parent that was deceased. I don't see how this can be accurate. I don't either. I really doubt that we are getting the whole story...
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 12, 2014 17:57:34 GMT -5
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 12, 2014 18:19:57 GMT -5
One way to avoid having your refund confiscated for who-knows-what is to never get refunds, don't overpay your withholding during the year, make certain that you always still owe something on April 15. Then the IRS would have to come to you with a bill and ask you for money - and the bill would need to contain explanations (Disclosure - I haven't had a tax refund in 20 or 30 years, maybe more). Those of us who are self employed with wildly Fluactuating don't have that luxury. I do my best, but sometimes it's just a WAG.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 13, 2014 8:55:18 GMT -5
Whew, I'm in the clear with my mom's tax situation. I wrote to the author of the Washington Post article and here is the text of what was included in the bill.
"Eliminate the Ten-Year Limitations Period on Offset -- This proposal would eliminate the ten-year limitation on the collection of delinquent non-tax federal debts by administrative offset. Delinquent debts could be collected by offset without regard to any statutory, regulatory or administrative limitation on the period within which debts may be collected. The proposed change would allow for the collection by offset of other federal debts consistent with the current law for student loans. Estimated collections: $11 million the first year, $65 million over ten years."
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Apr 13, 2014 9:31:43 GMT -5
"Until the kids turned 18, Sadie Grice got survivor benefits from Social Security to help feed and clothe them." So is SSAs stance that they are recouping her share of the overpayment as part of the payments were for HER direct benefit? If overpayment happened, I'm OK with that Sort of like if someone makes a run on a temporary SNAP glitch and gets $700 in food when they were only entitled to $50 telling them to repay
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 13, 2014 10:13:27 GMT -5
"Until the kids turned 18, Sadie Grice got survivor benefits from Social Security to help feed and clothe them." So is SSAs stance that they are recouping her share of the overpayment as part of the payments were for HER direct benefit? If overpayment happened, I'm OK with that Sort of like if someone makes a run on a temporary SNAP glitch and gets $700 in food when they were only entitled to $50 telling them to repay My problem is they don't know who the overpayment was for. They have no details of the overpayment, they just claim there was one. I also have a major problem with waiting this long to collect. If you collect within the previously enforced 10 year period AND can prove the debt is valid (ie details besides the govt's say so) then I can get behind it. I can't support this kind of money grab.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Apr 13, 2014 20:05:32 GMT -5
"Until the kids turned 18, Sadie Grice got survivor benefits from Social Security to help feed and clothe them." So is SSAs stance that they are recouping her share of the overpayment as part of the payments were for HER direct benefit? If overpayment happened, I'm OK with that Sort of like if someone makes a run on a temporary SNAP glitch and gets $700 in food when they were only entitled to $50 telling them to repay It probably wasn't a deliberate grab. It was probably an oversight such as reporting the youngest child's 18th birthday a month too late. If there was an overpayment, the repayment should have come from the adult responsible. The child should not be penalized for something they had no control over.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Apr 13, 2014 21:28:34 GMT -5
Peace77, so an error is made and an 18 yo who was legally an adult who benefitted from an extra check given to a parent years ago is responsible to repay. They also cite someone who waited 3 months after starting work to report that employment bc he needed extra $$ for first / lasy / security and they're making him repay. If I understand correctly, overpayments should not be collected from adults. Now if she was / is still a minor then I might agree that it should come from adult even if that means death benefit is insufficient to fully cover it
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Apr 13, 2014 21:50:27 GMT -5
Peace77, so an error is made and an 18 yo legally adult gets an extra check years ago. Older adult died and now the 18 yo legal adult who benefited from that extra benefit is responsible to repay. If I understand correctly, overpayments should not be collected from adults. Now if she was / is still a minor then I might agree that it should come from adult even if that means death benefit is insufficient to fully cover it By adult, I mean the parent. If the parent gets and spends the funds for rent, utilities, etc. and the just turned 18 year old never saw a dime of the funds, how is the 18 year old responsible?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Apr 13, 2014 21:54:38 GMT -5
Sorry. Edited while you typed and I don't know how to get it back to the previous version on the small screen on my phone. This is a very complex issue and I'm only hoping that the government makes a distinction between young adults who received a benefit and adults who received the benefit intended for a child. If it is the young adults to get the benefit any young adult needs to pay it back. If it is an adult to get the benefit for a minor child then the adult needs to pay it back even if it comes their death benefit which is inherited or used by the children to bury the parent. At that point unresolved debts should be absolved
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Apr 13, 2014 22:05:13 GMT -5
Peace77, so an error is made and an 18 yo who was legally an adult who benefitted from an extra check given to a parent years ago is responsible to repay. They also cite someone who waited 3 months after starting work to report that employment bc he needed extra $$ for first / lasy / security and they're making him repay. If I understand correctly, overpayments should not be collected from adults. Now if she was / is still a minor then I might agree that it should come from adult even if that means death benefit is insufficient to fully cover it What do you mean: "overpayments should not be collected from adults."? The problem here is that no one knows what caused the "overpayment" or if there even was one. Social Security is not perfect and could have made an error.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Apr 13, 2014 22:07:46 GMT -5
Should over payments be collected? SSA, snap, or others?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 0:17:34 GMT -5
"Until the kids turned 18, Sadie Grice got survivor benefits from Social Security to help feed and clothe them." So is SSAs stance that they are recouping her share of the overpayment as part of the payments were for HER direct benefit? If overpayment happened, I'm OK with that Sort of like if someone makes a run on a temporary SNAP glitch and gets $700 in food when they were only entitled to $50 telling them to repay I disagree. The benefits were paid to a parent. The correct action was for the government to collect against the parent's estate, subject to probate rules. Probate has a you snooze you lose period. SS is always rapidly notified of deaths, so for them not to have resolved the debt with the estate is nonsense. I don't think they have a right to go after minors who did not directly receive the benefit funds. To do so suggests that the fiduciary actually had no responsibility to the children to manage funds on their behalf properly. They stretched to reach out to minor beneficiaries of an overpayment the child didn't receive. I am glad this woman takes the action to court and will fight. I firmly believe the craziness will get overturned in the courts and SS will have to stop the funny business. If the overpayment was valid and notified to the payee, then they would have had no problem settling the debt against the estate.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 14, 2014 7:28:51 GMT -5
The person who got the overpayment could very well have been the first wife who she never met. The overpayment could also have been for the younger sibs who lived would have gotten survivors benefits after she had moved out and didn't get them anymore.
In the absence of actualy records saying the exact individual received the overpayment I don't see how their money can be seized legally. It just boggles my mind that the IRS thinks this is okay.
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