zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 9, 2014 10:26:15 GMT -5
The medical professional should have never ever operated on that girl without first demanding she lose weight and see if that helped her condition. That, to me, is as much at fault, as her parents were for contributing to her obesity.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 9, 2014 11:41:55 GMT -5
The Walk of the Penguin Mich - I see you point but that's not the instance I'm contemplating. You chose to follow medical advice at a different facility. One guy I know has type II diabeties, has been told he really needs to drop some weight and get his blood sugar under control. He's refused to do anything except take the medicine the doctor gives him which does nothing if he keeps drinking alcohol and eating a buch of processed foods. He has several sores that won't heal and was hospitalized a few times for MRSA infections. He also has partial kidney failure and will likely need to go on dialysis at some point. Yet he won't give up the drink, eat healthier, or even try to excercise. I think in some ways he's passively committing suicide. I have a friend who is a nurse at a dialysis unit. What you've described makes up the majority of their dialysis patients. Non-compliant diabetics. What percentage of people who have high risk for heart disease for example do you think have taken steps to lessen the risk? Free will.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 9, 2014 11:43:18 GMT -5
The medical professional should have never ever operated on that girl without first demanding she lose weight and see if that helped her condition. That, to me, is as much at fault, as her parents were for contributing to her obesity. How do you know? You are not that child's doctor and you have no idea as to what was done or not done. If tissue was needed to be removed from her nose/throat, it is very like that no amount of weight loss would have helped. I had a turbidectomy (I believe this was one of the surgeries done) in my early 20s. Having this surgery allowed me to be able to exercise without gasping for air. Until then, it was impossible to breathe and exercise. Breathing trumps exercise, every time. If you cannot exercise, losing weight is very difficult. If you cannot breathe, you cannot exercise. ETA.....prior to my surgery, breathing while exercising was the equivalent of trying to suck a thick milkshake through a straw. After surgery, breathing was the equivalent of sucking a coke through a straw.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 9, 2014 12:53:14 GMT -5
I go against medical advice every.single.time I walk into my conventional doctor's office and they want to shoot me up with vaccines, radiate me with mammograms, etc. No thank you. I'll take full responsibility for any outcomes for my decision. I believe I will live a longer and healthier life by not being bombarded with unnecessary "just in case" chemicals and radiation, especially when I have no active diseases. Flame Away. Just curious - if you get breast cancer that could have been detected early enough but wasn't - are you going to pay for all the treatments yourself? IF (and that's a big IF) I get breast cancer, it will be detected much earlier than a mammogram - see my posts about breast thermography. I'm not ignoring my breast health, I'm just choosing to pass up mammography as a screening tool. Too much radiation for me. YMMV.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 9, 2014 12:59:27 GMT -5
Just curious - if you get breast cancer that could have been detected early enough but wasn't - are you going to pay for all the treatments yourself? IF (and that's a big IF) I get breast cancer, it will be detected much earlier than a mammogram - see my posts about breast thermography. I'm not ignoring my breast health, I'm just choosing to pass up mammography as a screening tool. Too much radiation for me. YMMV. Sorry I didn't go back to edit my post. I responded to yours before I read your additional explanations. After I did (read your additional posts) I actually think that your approach is great.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 9, 2014 13:42:34 GMT -5
I believe the same would happen in the US. I seem to recall a news story where a teenagers parents tried to put a spin on him being taken off the transplant list due to some type of discrimination factor where it was actually due to non-compliance with the required treatment regime.
Also, just to clarify - I'm not looking to "force" anyone to be subjected to anything. I'm just wondering if other countries with a different system have found any solutions to non-compliance. Just as an example (and I don't know how much of this was TV hype) I remember watching a show based in the UK where people with extreme weight problems would seek medical intervention. Before drugs or surgery was tried though they would HAVE to meet with a nutritionist and trainer, and meticiously chart what they ate and physical activity. They also had to follow the recommendations. If they didn't - (and I can't remember this for certain it's been a few years) I think they would not be prescribed drugs or get surgery. What was remarkable about this approach (at least in TV fantasy land) was this (to me) more pragmatic approach produced astounding results. The before and after pictures showed the total improvement in the persons health (not just weight) skin color, hair, etc. I think this kind of approach/step therapy should be required. Am I making any sense? I was following that story. Evidently, his cardiac problems came on suddenly, and he was never on any medication prior to being hospitalized. There was nothing to be "non-compliant" about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 14:03:16 GMT -5
I have no problem with not forcing people to do certain things but then if their choices cause them serious health issues, I have problems with paying for their choices. I am totally on board with insurance telling you they aren't paying for your treatment because you took no steps to mediate your potential problem. and what if they things they do do, in compliance with medical advice, cause them more harm?
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 9, 2014 14:18:41 GMT -5
I go for an annual breast thermography exam. If administered and read by competent people, it can detect breast cancer UP TO TEN YEARS sooner than a mammogram. By the time a mammogram can "see" cancer/a tumor (after all, it's only an x-ray) you are already in trouble. And you've been doused with years of radiation. No thanks. Thermography is non-invasive and non-radioactive. When administered correctly , it has lower false-positive and false-negative readings than mammography. Flame Away. Breast Thermography is a tool used to evaluate breast health and has it's place as a diagnostic tool. But, from what I've read, it isn't a replacement for breast mammography. Some of what I've read says that thermography actually was found to have reported more false positives and false negatives. In addition, there are a number of different types of breast cancer. Your statement that "you are in trouble" at the point that it is detected on a mammogram doesn't necessarily make sense. What do you mean trouble? Without an extensive knowledge of oncology and the pathology of the different types of breast cancers, I must dismiss your comment as reactionary at best. www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/dr-christiane-northrup-and-breast-thermography-the-opportunistic-promotion-of-quackery/I can provide other discussions. Of course I respect your right to choose whatever you feel is best for you. I take issue with the misinformation you've provided here and would hope that anyone reading it would do their own research and take the advice of their own health care professional.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 9, 2014 14:27:25 GMT -5
I go for an annual breast thermography exam. If administered and read by competent people, it can detect breast cancer UP TO TEN YEARS sooner than a mammogram. By the time a mammogram can "see" cancer/a tumor (after all, it's only an x-ray) you are already in trouble. And you've been doused with years of radiation. No thanks. Thermography is non-invasive and non-radioactive. When administered correctly , it has lower false-positive and false-negative readings than mammography. Flame Away. Breast Thermography is a tool used to evaluate breast health and has it's place as a diagnostic tool. But, from what I've read, it isn't a replacement for breast mammography. Some of what I've read says that thermography actually was found to have reported more false positives and false negatives. In addition, there are a number of different types of breast cancer. Your statement that "you are in trouble" at the point that it is detected on a mammogram doesn't necessarily make sense. What do you mean trouble? Without an extensive knowledge of oncology and the pathology of the different types of breast cancers, I must dismiss your comment as reactionary at best. www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/dr-christiane-northrup-and-breast-thermography-the-opportunistic-promotion-of-quackery/I can provide other discussions. Of course I respect your right to choose whatever you feel is best for you. I take issue with the misinformation you've provided here and would hope that anyone reading it would do their own research and take the advice of their own health care professional. Agree to disagree. I take issue with the fact that you think I have provided some sort of medical advice here - or misinformation. I have in fact extensively sought the advice of my own healthcare professionals - they are the ones who have steered me toward breast thermography (so there ). I'm not some alternative, crunchy vigilante trying to sway people - I am simply stating my position - as do others. I believe I have that right. In re-reading my posts I see nothing that implies others should follow me. Definitely to each his or her own. I believe I state that frequently. I just believe The Mainstream Medical Establishment gets a lot of things wrong. I also can provide many examples and discussions (wanna start with all the Rx's that get pulled off the market for being dangerous/killing people after being touted as "the next great thing"?) Again - YMMV.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 9, 2014 14:30:03 GMT -5
Some medications are pulled after being on the market as some things show up when the drug is used on a larger population. Some things are not going to show up in controlled studies. Everyone's body chemistry is unique. One person may react much differently than the person in the study did.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 9, 2014 14:43:51 GMT -5
Some medications are pulled after being on the market as some things show up when the drug is used on a larger population. Some things are not going to show up in controlled studies. Everyone's body chemistry is unique. One person may react much differently than the person in the study did. And yes - in that process they are actually injured/damaged/killed by following medical advice instead of bucking it. Go figure. It's actually a very good question someone raised earlier but no on has answered: what about the people who are injured or damaged by following medical advice?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Jan 9, 2014 14:46:02 GMT -5
Some medications are pulled after being on the market as some things show up when the drug is used on a larger population. Some things are not going to show up in controlled studies. Everyone's body chemistry is unique. One person may react much differently than the person in the study did. And yes - in that process they are actually injured/damaged/killed by following medical advice instead of bucking it. Go figure. It's actually a very good question someone raised earlier but no on has answered: what about the people who are injured or damaged by following medical advice? Are part of the reason that medical advice, treatment, etc gets altered with further understanding.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 9, 2014 15:06:31 GMT -5
If every female in the US gets a mammogram as recommended (once a year starting at age 40), if she is not otherwise at risk for breast cancer (a VERY important caveat!), by the time she is 55 she will have actually INCREASED her risk for breast cancer by 15% (1% per year for every year she has the radioactive exam). That risk is no savings to society. No thanks, I'll forgo the radiation and do the things that are KNOWN to prevent breast cancer (keep my weight down, stay off of synthetic hormones, stay away from industrial chemicals in food/cleaning supplies/household furnishings/cosmetics, stay away from alcohol, get enough sleep, get enough exercise, not smoke, eat generous amounts of cruciferous vegetables, practice stress reduction). Oh, and do monthly self-exams and get an annual breast thermography exam, just in case . My body, my choice - regardless of someone-out-there-in-my-medical-group's judgmental decision to label me "non compliant." Do I get denied medical insurance now (lol)? 1. Please provide a link to that which supports your statement of the 15% increase in breast cancer risk after the 15 years of regular mammograms. 2, At this time, there is nothing known to prevent breast cancer. NOTHING KNOWN TO PREVENT IT. There are healthy lifestyle choices which you've noted and I agree are good choices, and might help lower risk, but none or all will PREVENT breast cancer. Talk to an oncologist to understand how many otherwise healthy young women, with healthy lifestyles are diagnosed with breast cancer every year. This type of pronouncement is what I refer to as misinformation. I respect your saying things that you feel or believe, but saying something is KNOWN, when that's not true is what I meant when I used the word "misinformation".
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 9, 2014 15:13:00 GMT -5
If every female in the US gets a mammogram as recommended (once a year starting at age 40), if she is not otherwise at risk for breast cancer (a VERY important caveat!), by the time she is 55 she will have actually INCREASED her risk for breast cancer by 15% (1% per year for every year she has the radioactive exam). That risk is no savings to society. No thanks, I'll forgo the radiation and do the things that are KNOWN to prevent breast cancer (keep my weight down, stay off of synthetic hormones, stay away from industrial chemicals in food/cleaning supplies/household furnishings/cosmetics, stay away from alcohol, get enough sleep, get enough exercise, not smoke, eat generous amounts of cruciferous vegetables, practice stress reduction). Oh, and do monthly self-exams and get an annual breast thermography exam, just in case . My body, my choice - regardless of someone-out-there-in-my-medical-group's judgmental decision to label me "non compliant." Do I get denied medical insurance now (lol)? 1. Please provide a link to that which supports your statement of the 15% increase in breast cancer risk after the 15 years of regular mammograms. 2, At this time, there is nothing known to prevent breast cancer. NOTHING KNOWN TO PREVENT IT. There are healthy lifestyle choices which you've noted and I agree are good choices, and might help lower risk, but none or all will PREVENT breast cancer. Talk to an oncologist to understand how many otherwise healthy young women, with healthy lifestyles are diagnosed with breast cancer every year. This type of pronouncement is what I refer to as misinformation. I respect your saying things that you feel or believe, but saying something is KNOWN, when that's not true is what I meant when I used the word "misinformation". Well certainly what is KNOWN is that the currently medical establishment GETS A WHOLE LOTTA THINGS WRONG. That's why we all have to make our own informed decisions. You make yours, I make mine. It is two-faced to assert that we all have the right to make informed choices and yet say that mine are wrong.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 9, 2014 15:13:34 GMT -5
There are risks with any medication. Every one should discuss those with their physician and pharmacist when starting a new medication. My pharmacy always asks if I have questions about a new medication. They will take the time to discuss it with me.
There are risks to medications and there are risks to certain health conditions. It's up to each patient to weigh those out for themselves, it is an individual decision.
We perfect medications, surgical techniques, etc through experience. No one gets a perfect blueprint delivered to them in a dream. We are always tweaking things.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 9, 2014 15:15:29 GMT -5
I don't see how asking for the information that backs up your cancer risk percentage is saying you are wrong. You tell us we should make informed decisions for ourselves and then you don't share the sources of your information so we can make that decision.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Jan 9, 2014 15:19:40 GMT -5
1. Please provide a link to that which supports your statement of the 15% increase in breast cancer risk after the 15 years of regular mammograms. 2, At this time, there is nothing known to prevent breast cancer. NOTHING KNOWN TO PREVENT IT. There are healthy lifestyle choices which you've noted and I agree are good choices, and might help lower risk, but none or all will PREVENT breast cancer. Talk to an oncologist to understand how many otherwise healthy young women, with healthy lifestyles are diagnosed with breast cancer every year. This type of pronouncement is what I refer to as misinformation. I respect your saying things that you feel or believe, but saying something is KNOWN, when that's not true is what I meant when I used the word "misinformation". Well certainly what is KNOWN is that the currently medical establishment GETS A WHOLE LOTTA THINGS WRONG. That's why we all have to make our own informed decisions. You make yours, I make mine. It is two-faced to assert that we all have the right to make informed choices and yet say that mine are wrong. Skubikky was stating factual information (anyone who tells you that you can *prevent* breast cancer with lifestyle choices and any particular screening method is providing deliberate misinformation) and asking for further information on a statistic you quoted. You advocate making informed decisions, and both of these things is promoting informed decisions.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 9, 2014 15:21:06 GMT -5
1. Please provide a link to that which supports your statement of the 15% increase in breast cancer risk after the 15 years of regular mammograms. 2, At this time, there is nothing known to prevent breast cancer. NOTHING KNOWN TO PREVENT IT. There are healthy lifestyle choices which you've noted and I agree are good choices, and might help lower risk, but none or all will PREVENT breast cancer. Talk to an oncologist to understand how many otherwise healthy young women, with healthy lifestyles are diagnosed with breast cancer every year. This type of pronouncement is what I refer to as misinformation. I respect your saying things that you feel or believe, but saying something is KNOWN, when that's not true is what I meant when I used the word "misinformation". Well certainly what is KNOWN is that the currently medical establishment GETS A WHOLE LOTTA THINGS WRONG. That's why we all have to make our own informed decisions. You make yours, I make mine. It is two-faced to assert that we all have the right to make informed choices and yet say that mine are wrong. I've not made any comment regarding your personal choices, those things you've listed I am in agreement on, yet that wasn't what I was taking issue with. I have taken issue with some of your statements and how you've presented them. You've chosen not to reply to that and that's ok.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Jan 9, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5
Well certainly what is KNOWN is that the currently medical establishment GETS A WHOLE LOTTA THINGS WRONG. That's why we all have to make our own informed decisions. What's also knows is that alternative medical treatment industry also gets a whole lotta things wrong.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 9, 2014 15:22:14 GMT -5
I don't see how asking for the information that backs up your cancer risk percentage is saying you are wrong. You tell us we should make informed decisions for ourselves and then you don't share the sources of your information so we can make that decision. Only because I predict from what has been said to me so far that I can post links until I'm blue in the face, but they will get shot down for being wrong (or deluded, or subject to "quackery"). Google "mammography increases cancer risk" if you're interested. I'm not interested in being told my choices are wrong ( for me). We all choose to believe what we choose to believe. I just don't happen to believe that Science and Modern Medicine are gods who have all the answers. And I don't choose to be the guinea pig of medical "tweaking." To each her own.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 9, 2014 15:24:28 GMT -5
Many of the vitamins, supplements and herbs tested by the FDA are not what they claim to be. Those have harmed people as well, not just FDA approved medications.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 9, 2014 15:25:30 GMT -5
I don't think any once can "force" someone to accept treatment (although there are rare cases such as MDR-TB) I am trying to figure out in countries with socialized medicine if they have addressed the issue of how to deal with non-compliance. Do they continue to treat the patient even though the patient refuses to take steps to reduce the overall cost of treatment? Or honestly, at some point do they tell the patient you refuse to cooperate so you no longer are entitled to healthcare? Still not really wording it well. Well, I know here in the States they will refuse you from the transplant list if you have a history of ignoring doctors' advice. I read a story about a teen who was denied a heart transplant because he had a history of refusing to take his meds, missing appointments ect. His family said it was because he had a criminal record, and the docs said it was because of non complience. He ended up getting a heart, but I hope he learned the importance of taking anti rejection medication and attending appointments.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 9, 2014 15:31:49 GMT -5
I don't see how asking for the information that backs up your cancer risk percentage is saying you are wrong. You tell us we should make informed decisions for ourselves and then you don't share the sources of your information so we can make that decision. Only because I predict from what has been said to me so far that I can post links until I'm blue in the face, but they will get shot down for being wrong (or deluded, or subject to "quackery"). Google "mammography increases cancer risk" if you're interested. I'm not interested in being told my choices are wrong ( for me). We all choose to believe what we choose to believe. I just don't happen to believe that Science and Modern Medicine are gods who have all the answers. And I don't choose to be the guinea pig of medical "tweaking." To each her own. No, if you posted a link, I'd read the article. I'm interested in gaining more knowledge, not proving you incorrect. I haven't told you that your choices are wrong for you. What you choose doesn't concern me. What you said regarding what is known or what you presented as factual information is what I've been trying to address. Unfortunately, you're angry at my responses to your posts and don't seem to be willing to have a discussion any longer. I understand and we can let it go if you'd prefer.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 9, 2014 16:15:10 GMT -5
I don't see how asking for the information that backs up your cancer risk percentage is saying you are wrong. You tell us we should make informed decisions for ourselves and then you don't share the sources of your information so we can make that decision. Only because I predict from what has been said to me so far that I can post links until I'm blue in the face, but they will get shot down for being wrong (or deluded, or subject to "quackery"). Google "mammography increases cancer risk" if you're interested. I'm not interested in being told my choices are wrong ( for me). We all choose to believe what we choose to believe. I just don't happen to believe that Science and Modern Medicine are gods who have all the answers. And I don't choose to be the guinea pig of medical "tweaking." To each her own. I don't think anyone has claimed that science or "modern medicine" are gods with all the answers. Although the science and modern medicine that have given us things like vaccines, antibiotics, transplants, etc have unquestionably saved countless lives so to dismiss either science or modern medical advice out of hand would be completely idiotic. And I'm not quite sure how you can try to make a case that your medical professionals have given you scientific advice that led you to choose breast thermography but then blast science and modern medicine?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 16:52:32 GMT -5
I have no problem with not forcing people to do certain things but then if their choices cause them serious health issues, I have problems with paying for their choices. I am totally on board with insurance telling you they aren't paying for your treatment because you took no steps to mediate your potential problem. and what if they things they do do, in compliance with medical advice, cause them more harm? and I'm still waiting for someone to address this.....if not following medical advice means your insurance doesn't cover something that results from that (not sure how you can prove it) then what happens when you follow medical advice and more harm is caused to you?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jan 9, 2014 16:52:37 GMT -5
I used to date a doctor who fired patients that didnt follow his advice. He had them initial his advice on their chart and then a year later, if they were non compliant, he could tell them they had to find another doctor as he would not be seeing them anymore. This startled quite a few patients btw. Most were overweight or diabetic. I'm thinking you are going to see more of this. My DH and MIL were both "fired" from their doctors this last year. MIL's doctor told her he wasn't having any luck getting her diabetes under control and thought another doctor would do a better job. MIL would pick and choose what advice she wanted to follow which is why it wasn't under control. DH on the otherhand did what the doctor asked, she just got pissed that he was still having issues and got tired of seeing him. Since she "fired" him (MIL's doctor asked another doctor to take over her care) via a letter, DH had a hard time finding a new a doctor. By the end, his old doctor honestly thought he just wanted narcotic meds. No, we just want him to be able to spend the day at a pain level below a 7. Thankfully, he had a recommendation to a psychologist that did an electrotherapy type thing and it helped. That doctor then was able to write a prescription so DH could buy his own. The irony is that buying our own machine was not covered by insurance ($800), but they would pay for repeated cortisone injections that didn't work (over $1500 a pop). Oh well, with our deductible and OOP, it will save us money in the long run, but it just another annoying part of the system.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Jan 9, 2014 17:25:54 GMT -5
and what if they things they do do, in compliance with medical advice, cause them more harm? and I'm still waiting for someone to address this.....if not following medical advice means your insurance doesn't cover something that results from that (not sure how you can prove it) then what happens when you follow medical advice and more harm is caused to you? I'd guess you could sue them, and if enough people are harmed by whatever that piece of medical advice is, it's usually discontinued either by consensus or by an oversight agency.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 9, 2014 17:31:35 GMT -5
I used to date a doctor who fired patients that didnt follow his advice. He had them initial his advice on their chart and then a year later, if they were non compliant, he could tell them they had to find another doctor as he would not be seeing them anymore. This startled quite a few patients btw. Most were overweight or diabetic. I'm thinking you are going to see more of this. My DH and MIL were both "fired" from their doctors this last year. MIL's doctor told her he wasn't having any luck getting her diabetes under control and thought another doctor would do a better job. MIL would pick and choose what advice she wanted to follow which is why it wasn't under control. DH on the otherhand did what the doctor asked, she just got pissed that he was still having issues and got tired of seeing him. Since she "fired" him (MIL's doctor asked another doctor to take over her care) via a letter, DH had a hard time finding a new a doctor. By the end, his old doctor honestly thought he just wanted narcotic meds. No, we just want him to be able to spend the day at a pain level below a 7. Thankfully, he had a recommendation to a psychologist that did an electrotherapy type thing and it helped. That doctor then was able to write a prescription so DH could buy his own. The irony is that buying our own machine was not covered by insurance ($800), but they would pay for repeated cortisone injections that didn't work (over $1500 a pop). Oh well, with our deductible and OOP, it will save us money in the long run, but it just another annoying part of the system. Is it a TENS unit? I have both a rx one and one I bought over the counter. Both are just as effective in my view. Though my insurance covered it the overall price for the otc one was 1/6th of the cost. Just an FYI if that's it, in case you need another one for some reason.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Jan 9, 2014 17:31:36 GMT -5
Only because I predict from what has been said to me so far that I can post links until I'm blue in the face, but they will get shot down for being wrong (or deluded, or subject to "quackery"). Google "mammography increases cancer risk" if you're interested. I'm not interested in being told my choices are wrong ( for me). We all choose to believe what we choose to believe. I just don't happen to believe that Science and Modern Medicine are gods who have all the answers. And I don't choose to be the guinea pig of medical "tweaking." To each her own. No, if you posted a link, I'd read the article. I'm interested in gaining more knowledge, not proving you incorrect. I haven't told you that your choices are wrong for you. What you choose doesn't concern me. What you said regarding what is known or what you presented as factual information is what I've been trying to address. Unfortunately, you're angry at my responses to your posts and don't seem to be willing to have a discussion any longer. I understand and we can let it go if you'd prefer. I was interested as well. I'd like to see scientific information about the subject, and if there's sufficient evidence, it would definitely give me food for thought about my choices. But unsupported claims don't cut it.
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Deleted
Joined: Jun 2, 2024 8:10:47 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 17:56:17 GMT -5
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