Native born vs Immigrants

[The Captain]

Just an observation.

I am currently recruiting for a position in my group.  Accounting specialty.  So far I've seen 7 resumes of folks who may be viable candidates.

Of those 7, based on language fluency listed on their resumes, I am presuming 5 are either immigrants or first generation born in the US.  I've experienced this in my last round of interviews (in fact my department has 2/3 who were not born in the US). 

This for a position that pays over $70K if you have 3+ years of experience in the field.

I find it interestering, that's all. 

[Deleted]

I'm in a field that attracts people in the STEM disciplines and I see that a LOT. It really makes me wonder about education in this country. Frequently the immigrants have other hurdles- needing visa sponsorship is a big one. Another is that they need to speak understandable English. In my last job, it was important because English was the common business language but you frequently had people from, say, India and China speaking in a teleconference. If you learned standard American and British English as a second (or third) language, you're not prepared for Chinese- or Indian- or Tennessee- accented English.

Non-native English speakers are less common in my current job, where client interface is important.

[haapai]

It's kinda wonderful that you're determining that they are immigrants or first generation by the languages that they list, not by their names. 

Is it the number of languages that are listed that tips you off, or the languages listed? 

[Tiny]

I'm not sure if it's because I work for a large international employer or because I work in a Big City - but it seems many of my younger co-workers are multi-lingual AND first generation Americans Some of my older coworkers are also multi-ligual and weren't born in America but are now citizens.

I know that my employer 'values' employees with diverse backgrounds and language skills since we have to communicate with people around the world. Thankfully, I speak 'geek' and manage to communicate with the other techies in our foreign offices although we often do have someone fluent to appropriate real languages included in our conversations in case of confusion or to clarify some points.

I hear lots of accents and sometimes interestingly constructed sentances at work everyday. I like it. I think it's cool.

I often feel 'cheated' because I never learned another language - even though both my parents spoke english and another language. Unfortunately my parents were from an older generation (first gen americans in the 1930's) - and it was NOT fashionable or American to speak anything other than english so they didn't pass down the 'homeland' language.

[The Captain]

It's when they list fluency in another language (usually two or more), and an undergrad degree from a non US institution (in some cases).  There are also studies that show the immigrant language is typically lost after the second or third generation so I admit I'm making a bit of a leap there.

So far though, I've only been wrong in my observations once, and that was an Army kid.

In my floor we have 40+ accountants.  There are 13 different languages spoken by over half of the group.  I feel very inadequate in this area as one of my staff is fluent in three languages, and conversational in a fourth.

[chiver78]

Dec 4, 2013 12:07:59 GMT -5 haapai said:

It's kinda wonderful that you're determining that they are immigrants or first generation by the languages that they list, not by their names. 

I had the same thought, haapai

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2013 12:11:56 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I often feel 'cheated' because I never learned another language - even though both my parents spoke english and another language. Unfortunately my parents were from an older generation (first gen americans in the 1930's) - and it was NOT fashionable or American to speak anything other than english so they didn't pass down the 'homeland' language.

Didn't your HS require it?  Mine did, and I took 4 years of French.  Then I took German in college.  I watch news podcasts in both languages. 

I'll agree, though, that they start WAY too late here (and even the programs that start early now offer only Spanish) and most students are lukewarm about learning them because "everybody speaks English".

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2013 12:20:50 GMT -5 The Captain said:

It's when they list fluency in another language (usually two or more), and an undergrad degree from a non US institution (in some cases).  There are also studies that show the immigrant language is typically lost after the second or third generation so I admit I'm making a bit of a leap there.

So far though, I've only been wrong in my observations once, and that was an Army kid.

In my floor we have 40+ accountants.  There are 13 different languages spoken by over half of the group.  I feel very inadequate in this area as one of my staff is fluent in three languages, and conversational in a fourth.

not all my office employees are accountants, but we have a lot of people with business/accounting degrees

i would say 80% are fluent in more than one language

I am one of the few that is not fluent in another language

a second language makes you even more desirable as a new employee

[Sunnyday]

Dec 4, 2013 12:28:45 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Dec 4, 2013 12:07:59 GMT -5 haapai said:

It's kinda wonderful that you're determining that they are immigrants or first generation by the languages that they list, not by their names. 

I had the same thought, haapai

me too! I have personal experience with this. it's really annoying. I have very unusual biographical details, and people just assume things by my name and physical appearance, including what language I must speak.

It shocks most people when I speak, because it creates like a disconnect from the reality and all their fcuking prejudices and stereotypes.

[haapai]

Dec 4, 2013 12:20:50 GMT -5 The Captain said:

In my floor we have 40+ accountants.  There are 13 different languages spoken by over half of the group.  I feel very inadequate in this area as one of my staff is fluent in three languages, and conversational in a fourth.

Just wait until your hearing starts going, then you'll feel totally inadequate!  Accents and sentence constructions that caused you no trouble when you were younger will become quite troublesome. 

It's really the pits!  The person that you are struggling to understand has the same name as an old friend from childhood or college and often speaks English better than the 1.0 version, but you're coming off as a grumpy nativist. 

[The Captain]

"eh, what?"

[Tiny]

Dec 4, 2013 12:39:05 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Dec 4, 2013 12:11:56 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I often feel 'cheated' because I never learned another language - even though both my parents spoke english and another language. Unfortunately my parents were from an older generation (first gen americans in the 1930's) - and it was NOT fashionable or American to speak anything other than english so they didn't pass down the 'homeland' language.

Didn't your HS require it?  Mine did, and I took 4 years of French.  Then I took German in college.  I watch news podcasts in both languages. 

I'll agree, though, that they start WAY too late here (and even the programs that start early now offer only Spanish) and most students are lukewarm about learning them because "everybody speaks English".

The language classes were an elective back in the olden days. I had two semesters of Spanish.  I managed to get thru jr College and then  night school university courses without taking a language.     

[Peace77]

My high school did not require a foreign language either.  In fact, my senior year they scheduled Biology 2 and German 2 during the same hour.  I guess they never considered that some students might want both classes.  I wanted both classes but had been told that 2 years of a foreign language was required for college so I took German 2.

European and Scandinavian countries have a much better system.  Children start learning 2 foreign languages at about 4th grade.  Usually they pick English and the language of the nearest neighborIng country.  It's so much easier to learn at a young age.  

[The Captain]

I took Latin for three years in HS, yea - that's helpful in having a conversation

[tskeeter]

I think one of the reasons we don't speak multiple "languages" is that most of us who live in the US have little opportunity/need to speak another language.  It's largely a question of geogrphy.  The US, alone, is bigger than western Europe.  So there is not much opportunity for most of us to hear or speak Fench, German, Italian, Castilian Spanish, and the like.

I, however, speak multiple dialects of American english.  Plains states Scandinavian (I can uff-da, lefse, and krumkaka with the best of them), with a touch of County Antrim thrown in; North Georgia, with the appropriate drawl (I can use mash, tote, and buggy in the appropriate North GA context); a bit of the Texas twang; and CA anonymous.   

[Sunnyday]

I'm also suspicious of people who do tell me that they speak this or that language, because when I actually test them, they have at best low intermediate level in that language. There have been so many times that people will tell me, I use to take French or Spanish, and I was fluent, but I forgot it all or I'm really rusty. Uh no, I'm sorry to inform you, but you were never fluent!

Look, even if I never speak English another day of my life, I will never forget it or get rusty. My English will sound odd at times, sure, stilted, yeah.

but no I will never "forget" it. It's because I actually am fluent in the English language.

[The Captain]

Three more resumes in.

Languages listed - 1.  Spanish, Porteguese
                           2.  Bosnian
                           3.  Hindi, Punjabi

[haapai]

I'd assume that candidates #2 and #3 are immigrants but I'd examine #1 a bit more closely.  Is that how they spelled Portuguese?

[The Captain]

Dec 5, 2013 17:21:08 GMT -5 haapai said:

I'd assume that candidates #2 and #3 are immigrants but I'd examine #1 a bit more closely.  Is that how they spelled Portuguese?

Nope, that was my mis-spelling.  I was going from memory on that one and thought I could get it right.

 

[Phoenix84]

I work for a STEM related federal agency.  Pretty much 100% of our scientists are native born Americans.  But that's to be expected since you have to be a U.S citizen to work for the U.S government.

[Phoenix84]

I don't recall forign language being a requirement when I was in high school.  I took one semester of french, and hated it.  I took one year of spanish, and hated it.  But I guess that was enough.

[Phoenix84]

Dec 5, 2013 14:33:22 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

I think one of the reasons we don't speak multiple "languages" is that most of us who live in the US have little opportunity/need to speak another language.  It's largely a question of geogrphy.  The US, alone, is bigger than western Europe.  So there is not much opportunity for most of us to hear or speak Fench, German, Italian, Castilian Spanish, and the like.

I, however, speak multiple dialects of American english.  Plains states Scandinavian (I can uff-da, lefse, and krumkaka with the best of them), with a touch of County Antrim thrown in; North Georgia, with the appropriate drawl (I can use mash, tote, and buggy in the appropriate North GA context); a bit of the Texas twang; and CA anonymous.   

 The U.S is a big country.  We don't have a lot of small countries grouped close together, each with their own language and culture.  So it's understandable why it wouldn't be common for natives like me to speak multiple langauges.  Even if you learned it, it would be hard to keep up with the practice to keep it.

[doxieluvr]

Dec 5, 2013 15:08:04 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

I'm also suspicious of people who do tell me that they speak this or that language, because when I actually test them, they have at best low intermediate level in that language. There have been so many times that people will tell me, I use to take French or Spanish, and I was fluent, but I forgot it all or I'm really rusty. Uh no, I'm sorry to inform you, but you were never fluent!

Look, even if I never speak English another day of my life, I will never forget it or get rusty. My English will sound odd at times, sure, stilted, yeah.

but no I will never "forget" it. It's because I actually am fluent in the English language.

Not necessarily true.

my husband is French Canadian and came to the US fluent in English and French. When we met 7/ 8 years ago he could still speak French reasonably well. Now he knows very little. 

[Sunnyday]

My question is how fluent was your husband in French. I find it hard to believe that your husband can forget his native language as an adult.

on the other hand, you can forget it as a young child, but an adult, no. Unless he had brain injury. I would think that perhaps he told you that he was fluent in French, but he had at best a conversational French that he lost over the years of non-practice.

Believe me Doxie, if you were on a island for 10 years where they only spoke the kikuyu language with no contact with the English language, you would still be able to speak English fluently.

[doxieluvr]

He came here as a teenager. He was fluent as it was spoke in his home and school. 

He still knew some when we met. He has only spoke English since coming here. 

[chiver78]

Dec 6, 2013 11:45:15 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

My question is how fluent was your husband in French. I find it hard to believe that your husband can forget his native language as an adult.

on the other hand, you can forget it as a young child, but an adult, no. Unless he had brain injury. I would think that perhaps he told you that he was fluent in French, but he had at best a conversational French that he lost over the years of non-practice.

Believe me Doxie, if you were on a island for 10 years where they only spoke the kikuyu language with no contact with the English language, you would still be able to speak English fluently.

I'd be willing to bet that doxie's DH comes from a more English-speaking area, even if he is of French descent.

[violagirl]

I dont' know if I agree with you rainyday. When you are not around or do not speak a language, you tend to lose the vocabulary. Technically, I speak French. In school, I would speak it all day, took high school History and Math in French with no problems. 18 years later...I can understand French, and can carry on basic conversation, but I've forgotten much of the vocabulary. If I spent a couple of months in Paris - I would  be back up to speed, but unless you are immersed in a language, it is easy to lose pieces of it.

Maybe the issue isn't so much losing the language, but losing the confidence to speak it.

[doxieluvr]

Dec 6, 2013 11:52:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Dec 6, 2013 11:45:15 GMT -5 Sunnyday said:

My question is how fluent was your husband in French. I find it hard to believe that your husband can forget his native language as an adult.

on the other hand, you can forget it as a young child, but an adult, no. Unless he had brain injury. I would think that perhaps he told you that he was fluent in French, but he had at best a conversational French that he lost over the years of non-practice.

Believe me Doxie, if you were on a island for 10 years where they only spoke the kikuyu language with no contact with the English language, you would still be able to speak English fluently.

I'd be willing to bet that doxie's DH comes from a more English-speaking area, even if he is of French descent.

Of course an "expert" that has never met my dh would chime in to disagree on the man I live with and what I have witnessed over the years. Good example of why I rarely post these days...

[Sunnyday]

Tell us where your husband is from. There are parts of Quebec where people switch back an forth between the two languages, and while they are bilingual, they lack complete mastery of both.

[doxieluvr]

Dec 6, 2013 11:55:49 GMT -5 violagirl said:

I dont' know if I agree with you rainyday. When you are not around or do not speak a language, you tend to lose the vocabulary. Technically, I speak French. In school, I would speak it all day, took high school History and Math in French with no problems. 18 years later...I can understand French, and can carry on basic conversation, but I've forgotten much of the vocabulary. If I spent a couple of months in Paris - I would  be back up to speed, but unless you are immersed in a language, it is easy to lose pieces of it.

Maybe the issue isn't so much losing the language, but losing the confidence to speak it.

And frankly my dh has not needed French in this country. If anything he has picked up some Spanish. He has not kept roots to his home country. It does not surprise me he lost the language.