djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2013 13:48:05 GMT -5
No, but many others make that implication. My only point is that I don't think private equity (on the whole, not case by case) is doing what people think it is doing. It is almost certainly a net positive for the economy, and most people (rich, poor, or otherwise) are not a-holes who want to make money by screwing over everyone else.
i don't think Bain is typical of private equity. i think they are unusually brutal.
And while there are rich a-holes who damage the economy to make a buck, there are regular Joes who do the exact same thing. Or in the case of bubbles, they're not necessarily a-holes, but it still happens. there is a lot of good VC out there, for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 14:28:55 GMT -5
I'll take your word for it on Bain. I don't know anything about them specifically. I just happen to know finance.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2013 15:24:00 GMT -5
I'll take your word for it on Bain. I don't know anything about them specifically. I just happen to know finance. so your moniker would lead me to believe.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 14, 2013 15:28:58 GMT -5
I don't think people set out to make money by screwing over everyone else.
I think they set out to make money. The fact that they end up having to screw over other people is considered collateral damage by a fair number of type A businessmen.
Note that I did not say only rich people behave this way. There are plenty of poor people who climbed over bodies in order to achieve success.
I wasn't always this cynical, but after 30 years in corporate America, working for a wide variety of bosses in three different industries, I would say 50% of the upper management at every company I worked for was willing to throw someone under the bus, cut safety or environmental corners, or fudge their numbers if it meant a bigger bonus, and you only have to look at companies like Enron to know that kind of attitude isn't uncommon.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 16:09:25 GMT -5
I'll take your word for it on Bain. I don't know anything about them specifically. I just happen to know finance. so your moniker would lead me to believe. Except that my moniker is complete BS. I wish I were more skilled on that front.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 16:10:15 GMT -5
happy--I have no arguments with that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 16:59:03 GMT -5
I don't think people set out to make money by screwing over everyone else. I think they set out to make money. The fact that they end up having to screw over other people is considered collateral damage by a fair number of type A businessmen. Note that I did not say only rich people behave this way. There are plenty of poor people who climbed over bodies in order to achieve success. I wasn't always this cynical, but after 30 years in corporate America, working for a wide variety of bosses in three different industries, I would say 50% of the upper management at every company I worked for was willing to throw someone under the bus, cut safety or environmental corners, or fudge their numbers if it meant a bigger bonus, and you only have to look at companies like Enron to know that kind of attitude isn't uncommon. this is different than what i have seen the MAJORITY of those i have worked with/for are in business for a profit, but are extremely careful about how they are portrayed or viewed there has been a few over the years....but very few....and they tend to get weeded out quickly by owners/executives that do care about their reputation maybe the business has something to do with it......the business has a hard reputation to start with.....car salesman have never topped the reputable charts so watching HOW we do business is one of my main jobs..... any complaint received is handled immediately.....and we try to figure out if it was an issue that could have been avoided as i wrote in dark's customer service thread......it is so easy to LOSE your customer's in todays world and once lost, getting a customer back is nearly impossible
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 18:37:25 GMT -5
I don't think people set out to make money by screwing over everyone else. I think they set out to make money. The fact that they end up having to screw over other people is considered collateral damage by a fair number of type A businessmen. Note that I did not say only rich people behave this way. There are plenty of poor people who climbed over bodies in order to achieve success. I wasn't always this cynical, but after 30 years in corporate America, working for a wide variety of bosses in three different industries, I would say 50% of the upper management at every company I worked for was willing to throw someone under the bus, cut safety or environmental corners, or fudge their numbers if it meant a bigger bonus, and you only have to look at companies like Enron to know that kind of attitude isn't uncommon. this is different than what i have seen the MAJORITY of those i have worked with/for are in business for a profit, but are extremely careful about how they are portrayed or viewed there has been a few over the years....but very few....and they tend to get weeded out quickly by owners/executives that do care about their reputation maybe the business has something to do with it......the business has a hard reputation to start with.....car salesman have never topped the reputable charts so watching HOW we do business is one of my main jobs..... any complaint received is handled immediately.....and we try to figure out if it was an issue that could have been avoided as i wrote in dark's customer service thread......it is so easy to LOSE your customer's in todays world and once lost, getting a customer back is nearly impossible This has been my experience as well. I've never once been asked to do something unethical, unsafe, hazardous to the environment, etc in order to make a buck. In fact, I've always been empowered to speak up and put a stop to that sort of thing. But I've seen and heard about bad stuff as well. So I'm really not sure what the norm is. But I do tend to believe that people generally try to do the right thing.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2013 18:43:02 GMT -5
this is different than what i have seen the MAJORITY of those i have worked with/for are in business for a profit, but are extremely careful about how they are portrayed or viewed there has been a few over the years....but very few....and they tend to get weeded out quickly by owners/executives that do care about their reputation maybe the business has something to do with it......the business has a hard reputation to start with.....car salesman have never topped the reputable charts so watching HOW we do business is one of my main jobs..... any complaint received is handled immediately.....and we try to figure out if it was an issue that could have been avoided as i wrote in dark's customer service thread......it is so easy to LOSE your customer's in todays world and once lost, getting a customer back is nearly impossible This has been my experience as well. I've never once been asked to do something unethical, unsafe, hazardous to the environment, etc in order to make a buck. In fact, I've always been empowered to speak up and put a stop to that sort of thing. But I've seen and heard about bad stuff as well. So I'm really not sure what the norm is. But I do tend to believe that people generally try to do the right thing. question to both of you: you seem to have a positive view of the basic ethics and standards of the rich. do you feel the same way about the poor? (i realize that you didn't make a distinction, ib- but this discussion was about the rich, so i am just checking)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 19:46:02 GMT -5
I don't think wealth is a good indicator of ethical standards. The rich only seem worse because one guy can do a lot of damage. But similarly, one guy can do a lot of good. Except when they show up on the news for crime, poor people rarely get noticed, good or bad.
If there is a difference in ethics between rich and poor, I'm not aware of it.
One thing that comes to mind is that the rich are higher up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So it's at least easier for them to be ethical. But that doesn't necessarily make them more ethical.
Edit: Maybe to better answer your question, I think it's usually a small group that ruins it for everyone else. The crime report generally involves lower income people, so it's easy to jump to conclusions. But those that do good rarely get noticed. I think the a-holes are in the minority at all levels of wealth.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2013 22:25:19 GMT -5
I don't think wealth is a good indicator of ethical standards. The rich only seem worse because one guy can do a lot of damage. But similarly, one guy can do a lot of good. Except when they show up on the news for crime, poor people rarely get noticed, good or bad.
If there is a difference in ethics between rich and poor, I'm not aware of it.
One thing that comes to mind is that the rich are higher up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So it's at least easier for them to be ethical. But that doesn't necessarily make them more ethical.
Edit: Maybe to better answer your question, I think it's usually a small group that ruins it for everyone else. The crime report generally involves lower income people, so it's easy to jump to conclusions. But those that do good rarely get noticed. I think the a-holes are in the minority at all levels of wealth. agreed. why then, is there such an inordinate/disproportionate amount of disparagement foisted upon the poor?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 7:41:42 GMT -5
I don't know. Maybe same reason it is done to the rich. A few bad apples spoil the bunch?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 15, 2013 10:59:13 GMT -5
GDG I think the difference is you've worked in businesses that deal directly with the customer, my job experience has always been with corporate management, where there are no customers to witness what the big dogs say. On the surface, each of the companies I've worked with tried to maintain good PR and to have happy customers. But in the corporate offices, where the customers can't see you, there's lots of shit going on. I saw a facility manager scheme with another manager to frame Employee A so they could fire him, when Employee B was the one that made the costly mistake (but the manager liked Employee B better than Employee A). Siphoning money off the books for a mistress. Cooking the books to generate a bigger bonus. One upper management person told me he would rather take the chance that an employee got killed and then pay off his widow than install an expensive safety system. Fabricating invoices to double charge a customer on a major project, hoping that the customer wasn't paying attention (he was, we got sued), and at one company, the CEO and CFO got arrested for completely falsifying the books to cover up an enormous billing error (we went bankrupt shortly thereafter - two a-holes that destroyed a whole company). The incidents of sociopaths as CEO's is 4%, which is 4x the number of sociopaths in society as a whole. That fits with what I've witnessed in the upper levels of several large companies. Money is success, and success is all that matters. www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 11:10:20 GMT -5
My experience is quite broad, from field techs and operators to senior vice presidents. I haven't seen that. Although I have seen incompetent management.
I think in both of our cases, we're only seeing a small slice of the world.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 11:40:36 GMT -5
This has been my experience as well. I've never once been asked to do something unethical, unsafe, hazardous to the environment, etc in order to make a buck. In fact, I've always been empowered to speak up and put a stop to that sort of thing. But I've seen and heard about bad stuff as well. So I'm really not sure what the norm is. But I do tend to believe that people generally try to do the right thing. question to both of you: you seem to have a positive view of the basic ethics and standards of the rich. do you feel the same way about the poor?(i realize that you didn't make a distinction, ib- but this discussion was about the rich, so i am just checking) i have a positive view of most of the people i have been around, worked with, and worked for, over the last almost 30 years or so (executives and management) most are not rich......very few actually my definition of rich is annual incomes over 500k, or net worth over 5 million
most would fall into the upper middle class but back to your question...... the way i look at it is this......i think the people that have more, have more to lose, and because of that, keep their noses clean for the most part i think most people are basically honest....but if you put an honest person in a situation where they felt their chance of getting caught was remote, some would try to steal theft is the result of means, motive, and opportunity my job is to take away the opportunity part.....and to try and reduce the means area (but if someone truly believes they have a NEED, they will steal no matter what barriers they have to cross) i dont think you can say rich or poor are more or less honest, or have more or less integrity each person is different.....
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Nov 15, 2013 12:41:36 GMT -5
imho 8 out of 10 people suck. that's up from 7 over the last few years.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 15, 2013 13:19:48 GMT -5
GDG I think the difference is you've worked in businesses that deal directly with the customer, my job experience has always been with corporate management, where there are no customers to witness what the big dogs say. i was thinking the same thing. has anyone seen Enron: The Smartest Guys In The Room? there is not much indication of ANY ethical standards from the top all the way down in that organization. it had the ethics of a tank of hungry crocodiles, and considerably more guile.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 15, 2013 13:24:40 GMT -5
question to both of you: you seem to have a positive view of the basic ethics and standards of the rich. do you feel the same way about the poor?(i realize that you didn't make a distinction, ib- but this discussion was about the rich, so i am just checking) i have a positive view of most of the people i have been around, worked with, and worked for, over the last almost 30 years or so (executives and management) most are not rich......very few actually my definition of rich is annual incomes over 500k, or net worth over 5 million
my definition is 1/5th that, which is the top 1% worldwide.
most would fall into the upper middle class but back to your question...... the way i look at it is this......i think the people that have more, have more to lose, and because of that, keep their noses clean for the most part interesting perspective. but there is a difference between unethical, and illegal. for example- if i sense that i can get an extra 20% out of you for something i sell, i could try to get it. is that ethical? Paul would say yes. i say no. i follow price lists. everyone pays the same. i think most people are basically honest....but if you put an honest person in a situation where they felt their chance of getting caught was remote, some would try to steal the biggest thieves out there are the rich, imo. but apparently we have a difference of opinion, here. i say that because a rich guy can easily walk away with millions. poor people are petty theives. it would take them a lifetime to steal that much, and they will likely be killed or caught long before then.theft is the result of means, motive, and opportunity the pen is mightier than the sword.my job is to take away the opportunity part.....and to try and reduce the means area (but if someone truly believes they have a NEED, they will steal no matter what barriers they have to cross) i dont think you can say rich or poor are more or less honest, or have more or less integrity each person is different..... good. so, what about sloth? is this a disease of the poor, or does it ALSO strike evenly?
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Nov 15, 2013 13:32:49 GMT -5
The Smartest Guys In The Room
isn't that what the ivy league has been foisting on us for the last three decades in earnest?
what are they teaching in those "hallowed halls"?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 15, 2013 13:50:59 GMT -5
GDG I think the difference is you've worked in businesses that deal directly with the customer, my job experience has always been with corporate management, where there are no customers to witness what the big dogs say. i was thinking the same thing. has anyone seen Enron: The Smartest Guys In The Room? there is not much indication of ANY ethical standards from the top all the way down in that organization. it had the ethics of a tank of hungry crocodiles, and considerably more guile. Saw it, and was appalled. Enormous house of cards, and the employees who invested their retirement money in it got left holding the bag. Just read an article in the New Yorker about the collapse of the Dewey and LeBoeuf law firm. Another instance of the big dogs at the top jockeying with each other to grab their millions until they bankrupted the firm. I would like to think kind thoughts about my fellow humans, but experience has shown the corrupting power of money.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 13:52:12 GMT -5
the way i look at it is this......i think the people that have more, have more to lose, and because of that, keep their noses clean for the most part
interesting perspective. but there is a difference between unethical, and illegal. for example- if i sense that i can get an extra 20% out of you for something i sell, i could try to get it. is that ethical? Paul would say yes. i say no. i follow price lists. everyone pays the same.
here we differ......i say yes on some things....and no on others....let me explain
i am in the car business. It is the only business i know of, where the manufacturers of a product post the wholesale amounts their dealers pay.
there are businesses built just on the premise of helping the consumer obtain the best deal available on a car purchase
i will tell you this much......if every consumer were educated and limited the profit of the deal like the really savvy buyers, dealers would be out of business in no time
or they would have to completely change the way the dealership concept works
as it is, most dealers across the country are barely eeking out a profit
so no...there is no price lists.....other than the MSRP sticker from the factory
and in the used car side, there is no such thing as a used car factory.....every unit is different (miles, equipment, condition, etc)
Now that is on car sales.....it is completely opposite on parts & service
there...everyone pays exactly the same amount for a oil change, a tire rotation, or other associated basic maintenance items unless they need specialty oil (synthesized) or something weird
different facilities will charge different labor rates, but almost every dealer across the country uses the standardized books for calculating the time the job allows
so yes....and no....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 13:56:55 GMT -5
the biggest thieves out there are the rich, imo. but apparently we have a difference of opinion, here. i say that because a rich guy can easily walk away with millions. poor people are petty theives. it would take them a lifetime to steal that much, and they will likely be killed or caught long before then.
easily walk away with millions?
white collar crime is prevalent......and in those cases the perpetrators do get away with more than a routine robbery
it is a whole different type of crime......
madoff is the perfect example....he ruined a lot of lives
but i would still rather deal with the madoff's of the world than a kid brandishing a .45 in a bank robbery where he is likely to shoot and kill someone
neither are good for anyone.....but at least in madoff's case, the people are still breathing
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Nov 15, 2013 14:02:12 GMT -5
Still breathing and destitute in some cases. He stole their retirement. He stole their future. It really isn't that much different from shooting somebody. In both cases you're stealing their future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 15:23:41 GMT -5
with knowledge you can rebuild...or at least try
dead is dead
again...both are lower than pond scum......but if i had to choose, i would choose white collar crime every time
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Nov 15, 2013 15:46:00 GMT -5
Counterfactually: Suppose Toys R Us had just kept having their butts handed to them by Target and Walmart. In 2004, Toys R Us closed down two-thirds of its Kids R Us outlets and all of its Imaginariums. Babies R Us, counting for 15% of total sales, represented 75% of income. Do you see that as a successful trend? Standard & Poors didn't. ... I know it's easy to look at how things are as a product of how things were, and use that to criticize a past decision. But sometimes you have to kill ten men to save a million. In the world where you did, you're a mass murderer, not a hero.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Nov 15, 2013 15:46:24 GMT -5
Pretty hard to rebuild from 65 and penniless. Stupid of them to invest everything in one fund maybe, but Madoff left victims like that in his wake.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Nov 15, 2013 15:48:24 GMT -5
Having reviewed half a dozen books in the British Library, I conclude Dr Seuss wrote everything.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Nov 15, 2013 15:55:40 GMT -5
Citation?
Let's stipulate that the 1% don't think well of the poor, and the poor don't think well of the 1%. Ignorant overgeneralization both ways, but sufficient for purposes: I don't think anybody would claim fewer than 1% have a problem with the poor.
Do even 1% of news articles attack the poor? Even 1% of news sources? Does Fox News vilify the poor? Breitbart? Redstate? The WSJ? Forbes? I can't recall seeing it, but I haven't been looking for it.
Do the articles that do attack the poor (assuming they exist) represent either inordinate or disproportionate disparagement?
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Nov 15, 2013 15:56:26 GMT -5
The Smartest Guys In The Room isn't that what the ivy league has been foisting on us for the last three decades in earnest? what are they teaching in those "hallowed halls"? Secret handshakes.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Nov 15, 2013 15:57:58 GMT -5
Formed after the collapse of Dewey, Cheatham, & Howe...
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