Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 22, 2013 15:26:33 GMT -5
Sure, but if that citizen was plotting to blow up fellow citizens I don't have much sympathy for the poor bastard spending the rest of his natural life in a dark hole somewhere occasionally getting the shit kicked out of him.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2013 15:47:25 GMT -5
Illegal according to whom? The regular court system or the FISA court? i already said that this was not Snowden related. how about the constitution and the sum of all treaties and agreements?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2013 15:48:44 GMT -5
Sure, but if that citizen was plotting to blow up fellow citizens I don't have much sympathy for the poor bastard spending the rest of his natural life in a dark hole somewhere occasionally getting the shit kicked out of him. what if the citizen had the misfortune to have the name of another citizen (or something similar), and he was transported to Syria, where they beat him shitless for six months before realizing their mistake?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 22, 2013 15:54:46 GMT -5
The constitution is too vague. Shit, the supreme court can't even agree on what it really means. Intelligence operations are bound by FISA court rulings, where even the rulings are classified. They're allowed to do things everyday that you couldn't do in the normal court system. Illegal gets murky when your doctrine comes from a secret court issuing classified rulings.
In theory, every single person in the DoD from the lowest soldier to contractors knows they don't have to follow an illegal order. However, refusing to follow an order can also get your ass thrown in jail, so you better be damn sure it's really illegal when you refuse to follow it. That ability to ignore illegal orders, doesn't allow you the ability to leak classified information though. You can refuse to work on a program you believe is operating outside of FISA court bounds, but you can't go tell the Russians about it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2013 16:04:03 GMT -5
The constitution is too vague. sorry, when i say constitution, i mean "constitution, the US Code, and where applicable, case law". i don't bother saying that because most people that are in the legal community get all that.Shit, the supreme court can't even agree on what it really means. Intelligence operations are bound by FISA court rulings, where even the rulings are classified. They're allowed to do things everyday that you couldn't do in the normal court system. Illegal gets murky when your doctrine comes from a secret court issuing classified rulings. In theory, every single person in the DoD from the lowest soldier to contractors knows they don't have to follow an illegal order. However, refusing to follow an order can also get your ass thrown in jail, so you better be damn sure it's really illegal when you refuse to follow it. That ability to ignore illegal orders, doesn't allow you the ability to leak classified information though. You can refuse to work on a program you believe is operating outside of FISA court bounds, but you can't go tell the Russians about it. i am aware of why people follow illegal orders. thanks for answering the question.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jul 22, 2013 16:23:45 GMT -5
He leaked information that the government classified, and information can only be classified if an approving authority feels that it's release would cause serious or grave harm to national security. Purposely causing serious harm to your native country is the legal definition of treason, and people who commit treason are legally referred to as traitors. He's a traitor, in the legal sense. i am not arguing against that. however, there is a higher law that we must all answer to: our conscience. Discussing whether or not the public knowing the existence of the program does actually cause any harm to national security is a total valid topic though. If it doesn't it never should have been classified to begin with, in which case he wouldn't be a traitor for publicly talking about it. yeah. between you and i: i am loving how much light this throws on dark places. I couldn't understand the big blow up from the politicos over the Snowden thing. If anything, he is in breach of contract and should be fired...maybe even sued. But arrested as a traitor? That seems a but much, especially since what he revealed isn't anything I would put people in danger. But I think why he is being so demonized by politicians is that he did the worst thing imaginable in their eyes: he made the government, and by extension the politicians, look bad.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jul 22, 2013 16:28:54 GMT -5
We wouldn't be able to hide it in the first place unless the aliens cooperated. They're flying around in friggin space ships. They could land one in Central Park, walk out, and say "take me to your leader". There's no way for Uncle Sam to make something like that go away. Plus if there were a species out there with the capacity of traveling great distances, they would probably be highly intelligent. Which means they would want nothing to do with us
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 22, 2013 20:22:52 GMT -5
The paperwork he signed when he got his clearance, and took the job, said if he leaked sensitive information he's guilty of treason. He knew that when he leaked it.
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