djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2013 1:11:04 GMT -5
i have been telling everyone i know this for years. if you look through past threads, i was saying that less than 30 will ever see trial of any kind. the number now stands at 36, and i bet it is going lower, if for no other reason than mortality. the real controversy surrounds the 48 who are considered "dangerous", but for whom there is insufficient evidence to bring to trial. they are in a sort of judicial no-mans-land. of these 48, about half of them have been captured since the Seton Hall study in 2006, which is interesting, as i have not been aware of ANY transfers during that time. the standards for "terrorism" are really low for all of these detainees. i doubt that many of them will ever be convicted, and meanwhile, the moral stain of indefinite detention which BOTH Obama AND McCain campaigned on in 2008 remains. the fact that we can't deal with this issue is both cowardly and harmful to our international standing, imo. www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/us/politics/29gitmo.htmledit: for those of you interested in the first study done, it is well worth the read, and here: law.shu.edu/publications/guantanamoReports/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2013 10:47:31 GMT -5
No man's land is right. They are prisoners of war in the "War on Terror". They are also considered by us to be criminals- terrorists. So as we wage this "war" on terror, they remain confined, as were German POW's in WWII. The rub is that the War on Terror is not like World War II. The War on Terror can be waged for years- decades even- with no defined goals or even a single defined enemy. I don't blame us for beginning to wage it- that is on OBL and al Qaida. We went into Afghan to get those bloody bastids. We were justified, and we were right, IMO.. that is precisely right. what are POW's in a never-ending war? we really need to grow up and ask that question. if there is no answer to that question, then we need to reclassify them, and give them civilian trials. justice delayed is justice denied. do we believe in justice, any more?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 18, 2013 10:53:24 GMT -5
Not every prisoner of war will be tried. When the conflict is over- in this case, al quaeda and company surrender, or are eliminated, they'll be released. That's the way it works in war.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 18, 2013 10:54:21 GMT -5
No man's land is right. They are prisoners of war in the "War on Terror". They are also considered by us to be criminals- terrorists. So as we wage this "war" on terror, they remain confined, as were German POW's in WWII. The rub is that the War on Terror is not like World War II. The War on Terror can be waged for years- decades even- with no defined goals or even a single defined enemy. I don't blame us for beginning to wage it- that is on OBL and al Qaida. We went into Afghan to get those bloody bastids. We were justified, and we were right, IMO.. that is precisely right. what are POW's in a never-ending war? we really need to grow up and ask that question. if there is no answer to that question, then we need to reclassify them, and give them civilian trials. justice delayed is justice denied. do we believe in justice, any more? We clearly don't believe in justice. If we did, we'd try them as illegal combatants, and execute them. Would you prefer that?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2013 11:03:56 GMT -5
that is precisely right. what are POW's in a never-ending war? we really need to grow up and ask that question. if there is no answer to that question, then we need to reclassify them, and give them civilian trials. justice delayed is justice denied. do we believe in justice, any more? We clearly don't believe in justice. If we did, we'd try them as illegal combatants, and execute them. Would you prefer that? if the trials were fair, absolutely.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2013 11:05:57 GMT -5
Not every prisoner of war will be tried. When the conflict is over- in this case, al quaeda and company surrender, or are eliminated, they'll be released. That's the way it works in war. a stateless enemy need never give up, Paul. states can be held to task. you can invade their territory, and claim it. what is AQ's "territory"? this whole thing was bogus from the get-go. don't start something you can't finish, i say.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2013 17:57:22 GMT -5
That would actually be ideal. Many/ most of them are probably too dangerous to release. you should read the Seton Hall study before you conclude that. but even if you use the more recent report, 86 of them are approved for release. the DOD would not release them if they felt they were dangerous. they aren't. if you are wondering what kind of a fraction that is, it is 52%. edit: i should have mentioned that almost six HUNDRED have ALREADY been released. probably Pakistani hairdressers that gave a bad cut. if you take the total number that the DOD has already released or is wanting to release, and divide by the total number of detainees, you get 89%, which is suspiciously close to the number of detainees in the Seton Hall study that were captured for bounty, away from the field of battle (86%). in other words, we wasted $3M and a lot of moral capital sweeping up a bunch of nobodies on bounty. i wonder if any of it ended up in AQ's pocket. i wouldn't doubt that it did. of the other 80, there are insufficient grounds for trying 48 of them. i have pointed out many times that the standard for enemy combatant is too low. low enough that a COOK for the Taliban would qualify as EC. someone with no tactical training, who has no particular beef with the US. i am still troubled by the number "80" for ones they want to detain. the original Seton Hall study showed that only 72 were NOT picked up on Bounty in Pakistan (bounty, which, by the way, was over one year's pay to an average Pakistani). of those HALF were high value = 36. that number matches perfectly. so i am wondering where the other dozen came from. i guess they were captured in Afghanistan and Iraq in Bush's last 3 years, because Obama claims that nobody has been sent there on his watch.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2013 17:59:16 GMT -5
That would actually be ideal. Many/ most of them are probably too dangerous to release. The problems are vexing though. We probably can't charge them in military courts. (Why, I'm not sure, but it seems unlikely at this point) Civilian courts have a higher bar to convict, and I'm not sure how many of them have enough solid evidence against them to convict. Another possibility for many would be to deport them back to their country of origin, since they would be promptly tortured/ killed there, depending on what their native country was. But that convenient solution also flies in the face of pesky human rights issues. In hindsight, none of them probably should have gotten off the battlefield alive. you cant torture a corpse.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2013 18:02:44 GMT -5
The problems are vexing though. We probably can't charge them in military courts. (Why, I'm not sure, but it seems unlikely at this point) why? because there is insufficient evidence to bring charges. that's why.Civilian courts have a higher bar to convict, and I'm not sure how many of them have enough solid evidence against them to convict. pop quiz: how many successful convictions of ECs has the military made? how many have been made in civilian courts?Another possibility for many would be to deport them back to their country of origin, since they would be promptly tortured/ killed there, depending on what their native country was. But that convenient solution also flies in the face of pesky human rights issues. i think i will take that over the human rights TRAVESTY of indefinite detention.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 19, 2013 10:34:03 GMT -5
you should read the Seton Hall study before you conclude that. but even if you use the more recent report, 86 of them are approved for release. the DOD would not release them if they felt they were dangerous. they aren't. if you are wondering what kind of a fraction that is, it is 52%. 86 are approved for release, but the DoD would not release them if they thought they were dangerous(?) I am confused; if the DoD don't believe they are dangerous, then why don't they release them?edit: i should have mentioned that almost six HUNDRED have ALREADY been released. probably Pakistani hairdressers that gave a bad cut. if you take the total number that the DOD has already released or is wanting to release, and divide by the total number of detainees, you get 89%, which is suspiciously close to the number of detainees in the Seton Hall study that were captured for bounty, away from the field of battle (86%). in other words, we wasted $3M and a lot of moral capital sweeping up a bunch of nobodies on bounty. i wonder if any of it ended up in AQ's pocket. i wouldn't doubt that it did. That I realize. They got some truly bad eggs, but they also got a lot of riff raff and nobodies. In hindsight (or in foresight as well for some of us) this was one of several Bush era directives that will go down in history as epic mistakes, on par with interring Japanese Americans en masse in WWII. $3 Million is petty cash in the whole Iraq/ Afghan boondoggle, but the wasted (or destroyed) moral capital as you call it is devastating.of the other 80, there are insufficient grounds for trying 48 of them. i have pointed out many times that the standard for enemy combatant is too low. low enough that a COOK for the Taliban would qualify as EC. someone with no tactical training, who has no particular beef with the US. That may well be. I don't honestly know.i am still troubled by the number "80" for ones they want to detain. the original Seton Hall study showed that only 72 were NOT picked up on Bounty in Pakistan (bounty, which, by the way, was over one year's pay to an average Pakistani). of those HALF were high value = 36. that number matches perfectly. so i am wondering where the other dozen came from. i guess they were captured in Afghanistan and Iraq in Bush's last 3 years, because Obama claims that nobody has been sent there on his watch. Again, I can't know, but that would not surprise me. Obama at least knew that Gitmo was problematic; that's why he campaigned on shutting the place down. I can't believe he'd want to add to the problem. However once in office he found what a vexing problem it is. he found out how vexing it was that people are a bunch of ignorant cowards. but he has overcome that problem before by steadily campaigning against it. in this case, however, he has basically just repeated his desire to fix the problem, without showing any commitment to it. this is actually my main complaint about Obama. he talks a good game, but he never walks it. that should THRILL other Republicans, but apparently words matter more to them than they do to me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 19, 2013 10:36:24 GMT -5
"And even if some of the detainees are perfectly innocent, I imagine they have an abiding hatred for the United States now. Especially since, even if they are innocent, their opinion of the US was most probably pretty dark to begin with."
dem- you hit the nail right on the head. they might not have even THOUGHT about the US before this, but they want to kill every last one of us now. i know i would, if i had been sold for $4,000 and thrown in a cage for 10 years, never to see my family again.
wwjd?
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 20, 2013 9:10:25 GMT -5
Tattoo the word "DRONE" on each of their hands and release them. Then if they ever lift a finger against us, they will have fair warning of the consequence.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 20, 2013 10:35:04 GMT -5
I have no idea. Don't forget though, he ended up on a cross. We live in an imperfect world. We were at war. (Really, with the country whose government sheltered the people responsible for 9-11 and other atrocities) We took asymmetrical prisoners, many of whom were really terrorists, such as "Shiek" Kalid Muhommad. We as a nation made some mistakes, but mistakes happen in war. Deadly, nasty, awful mistakes. One reason why war is to be avoided when possible.. sorry, but most of the mistakes were avoidable. they were avoidable by learning the lessons of WW2. that was the war where we learned that torture and bounty was ineffective. but moreover, our creating a whole new classification of combatant is clearly outside of international law. it is something that, if employed by one of our enemies, we would be OUTRAGED over. there are lawful and unlawful combatants. one type receives POW treatment, the other civilian trials. making up a third classification that we can do anything we want with is not only illegal, but immoral.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 20, 2013 10:36:31 GMT -5
I also feel bad for those we interred in WWII. But I am also very, very glad that we won WWII. there are such things as "just wars", and there are wars with no legal or moral justification whatsoever. let's not conflate them.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 20, 2013 17:08:09 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 20, 2013 18:38:51 GMT -5
Yes, they deserve either international, military or civilian trials and that was the intent, I believe. . why do you believe that was their intent?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 20, 2013 18:41:34 GMT -5
sweet deal for the US. 5 prisoners that they could never charge for one of our guys.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 21, 2013 9:48:22 GMT -5
The initial plan was that they would stand trial in military courts. At least that is what they claimed. Obviously their intent was also to obtain critical information from them, and in trying to do so they also used illegal methods such as "enhanced interrogations"- torture lite. over 100 detainees have died during interrogation. does that sound lite to you?I do believe that they did intend to bring them to trial afterwards. I can't believe they thought indefinite detention was a good plan. They just didn't think it through it seems to me (if I have to guess) because their pressing immediate goal was to "debrief" them. you are probably right. they probably just didn't think it through. i guess where i stand is that i don't think they really cared what happened to these guys. they felt that they were subhumans, and treated them that way. may God forgive them, and may God forgive the rest of us that didn't treat it like a human rights violation that HAD TO BE STOPPED.
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2013 15:29:09 GMT -5
there are such things as "just wars", and there are wars with no legal or moral justification whatsoever. let's not conflate them. But we don't go to war because of legal or moral reasons, we go to war because it's in our best interests to do so... It is in our best interest to only go to war when we have a legal or moral reason for doing so.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2013 15:49:47 GMT -5
Revolutionary War not sure. WWI was a mistake. WWII - Japan bombed us and Germany declared war on us first. Not much we could have done after that except go to war.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2013 18:15:57 GMT -5
Nice answer man...really, by your definition we shouldn't have started the Revolutionary War...yet we celebrate Independence Day as a holiday. I agree, WWI was a mistake, but it was inevitable due to monarchy's clashing with democracy's when you get right down to it. And as far as WWII goes, so what if Germany declared war on us?? About every 15 minutes there's some dooshbag on youtube saying he's declaring war on us and then go "FALALLALAA Jihad American Swine" and ride off into the sunset to most likely get blowed up by a drone at a later date. What I'm saying is that declaring war isn't necesarily a reason to go to war under your legal and moral terms. I'm sure plenty of people on this forum have declared war against each other, but never sent heavy bombers over Dresden because of it... ... Of course we celebrate Independence Day as a national holiday. Every national government celebrates it creation, whether it was justified legal or morally. War in Europe was inevitable I will grant you. But Europe had wars in the 1800's that we didn't get involved with. The time that they were fighting that we call "World War I" we didn't have to get involved. In the world of nation-states, it is widely accepted as "legal" to wage war on a nation that is waging war on you. As far as generalizing the discussion to include anytime that anyone anywhere uses the word "war" in any context as having any significance to what I am talking about is just simple bullshit.
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 21, 2013 18:32:18 GMT -5
Honestly I think the Gitmo detainees get blown a little out of proportion. The guys can't be that dangerous when you get right down to it. Terrorists thrive by having a network of contacts they can work with. These guys have been locked up in the land that time forgot for most of the war. The majority of their contacts are probably dead, retired, in hiding, etc. If you let them go now, how dangerous can they really be? These 48 dudes with their outdated terrorist rolodexes are somehow going to change the tide of the war? Me thinks not. That's assuming they were all actually terrorists to begin with.
If you spent the last decade in a dark hole, cut off from the world, occasionally getting the crap knocked out of you by US intelligence agents, then I handed you your 10 year old cell phone with it's 10 year old contact list, flew your ass to the back end of nowhere, and threw you out of a helicopter how much damage could you really do? Honestly?
Do they hate America? Sure. Get in fucking line. People have been hating us for a couple hundred years. What's 48 more assholes in the world?
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2013 18:43:21 GMT -5
... About every 15 minutes there's some dooshbag on youtube saying he's declaring war on us ... I'm sure plenty of people on this forum have declared war against each other, ... ... Could you clarify a bit your last sentence? The Furniture Hut has just declared war on high prices! This is irrelevant to a discussion on the issue of nation-states and war.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 21, 2013 18:46:57 GMT -5
Of course not, but I'm just one guy, or in this case 48 guys. We aren't going to be able to overthrow Cuba either. We'll be pissed off at our detention, and we'll hate Cuba until the day we die, but plenty of people hate Cuba, adding me the mix doesn't really change anything from Cuba's perspective.
I'm willing to bet that there are a hell of a lot more than 48 people in Afghanistan and Iraq right now that hate America. Adding these jokers to the mix doesn't really change the picture on the ground, does it? We can't try them, we can't just execute them, so deport them and move on. Honestly they're probably more dangerous as a symbol than they are as free men. If we release them we create 48 terrorists, assuming they're all eager to shoulder an outdated Russian assault weapon and head into round two against US troops, but every year that we keep them locked up without process or trial how many terrorists are we creating through radical muslims using them as a propaganda piece? Probably a lot more than 48.
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2013 19:30:29 GMT -5
...In other words...you don't know what you're talking about ... You aren't correct in this either.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 21, 2013 20:06:36 GMT -5
No, it was mostly a massive intelligence failure. If a middle easterner on an overstayed student visa goes to a pilot training site and asks to be shown how to fly a plane but not take off or land these days they sure as shit aren't going to be allowed in. If 6 guys with box cutters try to take over a flight the 200+ passengers are going to literally rip them apart with their bare hands before they're going to allow them to fly the plane into something.
Do I? We've had tens of thousands of them in active in just Iraq and Afghanistan over the past decade. How many blown up buildings have you seen on American soil since 9/11? As dangerous as these guys supposedly are, there shouldn't be a skyscraper left standing by now.
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2013 23:42:36 GMT -5
You aren't correct in this either. Then stop posting pretty fonts and music videos and start printing arguments... Read back. I stated it clearly in font size 2 black type. You didn't get it. I tried to help as you requested. You didn't get it the second time either. Not my problem.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2013 23:53:01 GMT -5
Oh yeah, and
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 22, 2013 1:28:17 GMT -5
message deleted by moon. Dark, you know full well you don't get to say what you did in here!
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 22, 2013 11:40:29 GMT -5
One of the things I love about engaging in live theatre is the lack of permanence of what is performed. It is there and then it is gone. Much more real to life than the permanence of film.
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