Bay Area elementary school holds toy-gun exchange

[Politically_Incorrect12]

  Strobridge Elementary School in Hayward, Calif., held a toy-gun exchange program over the weekend, according to a report from CBS-5 San Francisco.

Inspired by gun buy-back programs that focus on getting weapons off the streets, Principal Charles Hill felt a similar program for toys made a lot of sense.

"Playing with toys guns, saying 'I'm going to shoot you,' desensitizes them," said Hill, "so, as they get older, it's easier for them to use a real gun."

Students who participated were given books in exchange for their toy guns. They were also enrolled in a raffle to win a bike, the event's grand prize.

CBS-5 spoke with parents who had brought their children to trade in their guns. One mother said she was always against toy guns, but she noted that her son felt left out when he saw the other kids playing with theirs.

Some of the guns shown in the CBS-5 report were clearly fake, but others that were exchanged might easily have passed for real weapons.

Police Officer Braydon Wilson, who was at the toy-gun exchange to talk to students about safety, told CBS-5 that sometimes kids will paint their toy guns to look like real ones. Other times, owners of real guns will paint the tip of the gun barrel orange to make it appear like a toy, according to Wilson.

Read more at: news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/bay-area-elemntary-school-holds-toy-gun-exchange-172910646.html?vp=1

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I could totally see myself tradiing in any of my brother's toy guns to get free books.  Screw the message, I just want free books.
 
This seems silly.  Just because they don't own a toy gun doesn't mean they won't shoot someone/something later in life.  It's a crapshoot as to whether or not that'll happen.  It's a meaningless gesture to make a bunch of people feel good about themselves.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

I guess when you can't even play "tag" without it being called "inappropriate touching" in some schools, I shouldn't be surprised by something like this....but I can't help but wonder why the parents who are bringing their kids to turn the toy guns in, bought them in the first place.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Because they are able to talk the talk but not walk the walk?
 
One mother said she was always against toy guns, but she noted that her son felt left out when he saw the other kids playing with theirs

[whoisjohngalt]

Oh I am so naive bc every time I think we can't get any stupider, we do. 

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jun 10, 2013 15:15:56 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Because they are able to talk the talk but not walk the walk?
 
One mother said she was always against toy guns, but she noted that her son felt left out when he saw the other kids playing with theirs

So how is her son going to feel when his friends still have their toy guns, or only turned in the broken ones they had for the exchange?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Left out?  Which means the cycle starts all over again.

[djAdvocate]

i don't think it is silly.  i think it is CUTE, tho. 

[Malarky]

Jun 10, 2013 15:17:34 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Oh I am so naive bc every time I think we can't get any stupider, we do. 

Oh, FFS!!!!

I don't ever want grandchildren.  This world is becoming so ridiculous.  And it's too late to undo my kids.

Cowboys and Indians do not make kids violent.  War games do not make kids violent.  Video games do not make kids violent.

Teaching them respect for themselves and those around them is the responsibility of the parents. 

Toy guns never made me want to kill anyone, but political correctness may yet.   

[djAdvocate]

Jun 10, 2013 18:31:49 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Jun 10, 2013 15:17:34 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Oh I am so naive bc every time I think we can't get any stupider, we do. 

Oh, FFS!!!!

I don't ever want grandchildren.  This world is becoming so ridiculous.  And it's too late to undo my kids.

Cowboys and Indians do not make kids violent.  War games do not make kids violent.  Video games do not make kids violent.

Teaching them respect for themselves and those around them is the responsibility of the parents. 

Toy guns never made me want to kill anyone, but political correctness may yet. 

i think the research is pretty conclusive on the impact of exposure to violence/aggression and the behavior of children and adults.

www.apa.org/pi/prevent-violence/resources/tv-violence.aspx

if you think otherwise, please cite your evidence.

oh, and F(*K political correctness.  i don't give two s(*ts about it.  i only care about facts.  so FIRE AWAY! 

[Apple]

Maybe this will finally promote some creativity and imagination again!  I know when we were kids we could turn anything into a gun... sticks, fingers, legos, dolls (if you held a leg like a pistol grip)... 

[whoisjohngalt]

DJ, I don't have a study, I don't believe them, so don't usually read them, can only tell you what I've observed.  I grew up with boys playing all kinds of war games, that was pretty much all they played.  We were all about "war".  We also used to watch war movies (WWII) as part of our school curriculum starting at fairly early age.  And pretty violent movies too.  Again, it was ALL about WWI and WWII - our history curriculum was very heavy on that.

There were NEVER any mass shootings or bombings or anything of that nature.  Ever.  I've asked my parents as well, as they were born right after the WWII.  No mass violence.

In addition, bc WWII was fought on a lot of the territory where I grew up, there were TONS of war-related stuff that were founded by kids all.the.time.   So, not toys, real stuff.  Real guns and rifles and bombs.  

You can find a study to "prove" anything, but the thing is - boys played a certain way for hundreds of years.   I don't know what makes it so attractive to them, but for some reason they do it.

So, how is it that now, all of a sudden, toy guns are the problem?

[whoisjohngalt]

Jun 10, 2013 22:22:01 GMT -5 Apple said:

Maybe this will finally promote some creativity and imagination again!  I know when we were kids we could turn anything into a gun... sticks, fingers, legos, dolls (if you held a leg like a pistol grip)... 

But how is that any different.  It's an idea of a gun, not necessarily the form of a gun that theoretically is the problem

[djAdvocate]

Jun 10, 2013 22:25:17 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

DJ, I don't have a study, I don't believe them, so don't usually read them, can only tell you what I've observed.  I grew up with boys playing all kinds of war games, that was pretty much all they played.  We were all about "war".  We also used to watch war movies (WWII) as part of our school curriculum starting at fairly early age.  And pretty violent movies too.  Again, it was ALL about WWI and WWII - our history curriculum was very heavy on that.

There were NEVER any mass shootings or bombings or anything of that nature.  Ever.  I've asked my parents as well, as they were born right after the WWII.  No mass violence.

In addition, bc WWII was fought on a lot of the territory where I grew up, there were TONS of war-related stuff that were founded by kids all.the.time.   So, not toys, real stuff.  Real guns and rifles and bombs.  

You can find a study to "prove" anything, but the thing is - boys played a certain way for hundreds of years.   I don't know what makes it so attractive to them, but for some reason they do it.

So, how is it that now, all of a sudden, toy guns are the problem?

whatever.  again, you are saying your anecdotal evidence trumps my study.  all i am asking for is a study which backs up your anecdotal evidence.

your specific situation has nothing to do with the general case, whois.  neither does mine.  THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU OR ME.

[djAdvocate]

just so you get me right, here, whois:

i was raised around guns.  shot them when i was little.  was a member of the NRA at 14 (or custodial member- i can't remember if they gave me a full membership or not).  still own and shoot guns today.  it didn't make me violent.

what DID make me violent was the serial abuse of my father.  there is anecdotal for you.

but getting back to the point, i think the evidence is quite clear that exposure to violence and aggression makes kids and adults more violent and aggressive.  if you have evidence to the contrary, present it.  otherwise, i am not sure how much your situation or mine have to do with anything.

[Apple]

Jun 10, 2013 22:26:20 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Jun 10, 2013 22:22:01 GMT -5 Apple said:

Maybe this will finally promote some creativity and imagination again!  I know when we were kids we could turn anything into a gun... sticks, fingers, legos, dolls (if you held a leg like a pistol grip)... 

But how is that any different.  It's an idea of a gun, not necessarily the form of a gun that theoretically is the problem

Exactly...  and, it seems kids have a pretty natural desire to want to play guns (cops and robbers, cowboys and indians...) pc or not.  I was drawn to playing with "guns" the way a lot of girls want to make everything a "baby".  I have yet to shoot anyone.  The boys I played with have yet to shoot anyone.  Hell, we even got to graduate to BB guns and pellet guns and "real" guns before Jr. High/High School.  It's not the "gun" that is the problem, or even wanting to play "guns".

[Virgil Showlion]

Toy guns never made me want to kill anyone, but political correctness may yet.  

They should hold meds-for-guns drives in 'at risk' states.

[whoisjohngalt]

Jun 10, 2013 22:34:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

just so you get me right, here, whois:

i was raised around guns.  shot them when i was little.  was a member of the NRA at 14 (or custodial member- i can't remember if they gave me a full membership or not).  still own and shoot guns today.  it didn't make me violent.

what DID make me violent was the serial abuse of my father.  there is anecdotal for you.

but getting back to the point, i think the evidence is quite clear that exposure to violence and aggression makes kids and adults more violent and aggressive.  if you have evidence to the contrary, present it.  otherwise, i am not sure how much your situation or mine have to do with anything.

The thing is that YOUR anecdotal evidence and mine and many other people's is what trumps ANY study in MY opinion. 

I don't believe any behavioral studies unless they are very basic ones like Pavlov's.   I don't believe them bc the basic idea of those studies is flawed.  I am too tired to get into it right now (even if you want me to), but if it's studies you want, here ya go

www.switched.com/2009/01/26/school-shootings-not-caused-by-violent-games-study-says/

www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/05/10/video-games-dont-cause-children-to-be-violent

news.illinois.edu/news/05/0809videogames.html

www.gamingtruth.com/2012/01/10/new-study-confirmsvideo-games-dont-cause-violence/

[whoisjohngalt]

Also, just another anecdotal evidence - I have 3 boys - you know what I noticed makes them more aggressive?  Lack of play and physical activity.  Of course, lack of sleep and hunger, etc.  But beyond basic needs - it's when they don't PLAY, they start being mean and aggressive and hyper. 

[jkapp]

Jun 10, 2013 22:34:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

just so you get me right, here, whois:

i was raised around guns.  shot them when i was little.  was a member of the NRA at 14 (or custodial member- i can't remember if they gave me a full membership or not).  still own and shoot guns today.  it didn't make me violent.

what DID make me violent was the serial abuse of my father.  there is anecdotal for you.

but getting back to the point, i think the evidence is quite clear that exposure to violence and aggression makes kids and adults more violent and aggressive.  if you have evidence to the contrary, present it.  otherwise, i am not sure how much your situation or mine have to do with anything.

Those studies always bother me...because they only look at the few violence factors but leave out other major factors that cause unruly/violent children (like PARENTING).  What I've found is that the violent kids in my neighborhoods are from families that don't give a shit and have zero discipline over their "little angels."  When children are raised without boundaries, they don't know when to stop their bad actions.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If it's just toy guns/video games/etc that make people go on mass shooting sprees why are there psychologists on TV after every shooting saying these people are bat shit crazy and there's no way to predict/control it?
 
It's human nature to want to rationalize and find an easy logical solution, but in the end giving up toy guns is a meaningless gesture.  It doesn't stop or solve anything.  You can't control crazy.

[billisonboard]

Jun 11, 2013 9:38:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

... why are there (pick an expert) on TV after every (pick an event) saying (pick an opinion)...?

24 hour news cycle

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 11, 2013 9:38:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

If it's just toy guns/video games/etc that make people go on mass shooting sprees why are there psychologists on TV after every shooting saying these people are bat shit crazy and there's no way to predict/control it?
 
It's human nature to want to rationalize and find an easy logical solution, but in the end giving up toy guns is a meaningless gesture.  It doesn't stop or solve anything.  You can't control crazy.

Let me play Devil's advocate in this case.

Research can easily verify the existence of (or non-existence of) a causal link between violent video games and mass shootings. Simply look at the number of people who play violent games, look at the number of shootings, and acknowledge that there are hundreds of millions in the first group and only a handful of individuals in the latter. You're not going to get a particularly high correlation.

But the question gets a lot stickier if violent games are just one ingredient among several. The formula might be something as simple as Schizophrenia + Violent Games = Violent Crimes, or something significantly more complicated. Not only does this take us into more rarefied territory research-wise, there are countless possible linkages we'd need to examine. Furthermore, in the inevitable cases where we did find strong correlations for specific 'recipes', we'd need to establish the correlation wasn't spurious and that the video game element was causative.

Realistically this isn't possible. Not only is there not enough time and reliable data, but establishing causation through controlled experiments would violate even the most permissive university's code of ethics. Ergo we must acknowledge that there may exist a causative link between video games and violent behaviour, and that science is ostensibly blind to it.

This is a far cry from proof, of course, but opponents of violent games do have the argument on their side that Lanza, Cho, Harris, et al. all appear to have nurtured their love of violence using video games.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Ergo we must acknowledge that there may exist a causative link between video games and violent behaviour, and that science is ostensibly blind to it

True but we can also point out they were all at one point on various anti-depressants/psychoics and either institutionalized or in intensive therapy.  In non-PC terms these guys were bat shit crazy.
 
However it's a lot easier to control video games with ratings systems and easier to have meaningless toy gun round ups.  We can then say we did something.

It's a lot harder to fix our broken mental health system and figure out what to do with guys like this because you can't predict which crazy is going to snap and shoot up a movie theatre.

There may be a link but I think it's a very very small drop in the bucket when you consider how many people all over the world buy these games vs how many people become mass shooters.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 11, 2013 10:21:43 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Ergo we must acknowledge that there may exist a causative link between video games and violent behaviour, and that science is ostensibly blind to it

True but we can also point out they were all at one point on various anti-depressants/psychoics and either institutionalized or in intensive therapy.  In non-PC terms these guys were bat shit crazy.
 
However it's a lot easier to control video games with ratings systems and easier to have meaningless toy gun round ups.  We can then say we did something.

It's a lot harder to fix our broken mental health system and figure out what to do with guys like this because you can't predict which crazy is going to snap and shoot up a movie theatre.

There may be a link but I think it's a very very small drop in the bucket when you consider how many people all over the world buy these games vs how many people become mass shooters.

But the "various anti-depressants/psycho[t]ics" is exactly my point. That's one factor we could examine: Do violent video games inspire violence in individuals being medicated for mental disorders?

Maybe parental detachment is another factor. Do violent video games inspire violence in individuals being medicated for mental disorders and whose parents aren't monitoring them closely?

As you hone in on a specific set of factors, you're eventually going to get a strong correlation, and the question is whether the correlation is meaningful. Are violent games a contributing factor to the violence, or are they just a type of game this individual happens to like? Is the data set large enough to rule out spurious correlation?

As I say, there are too many possibilities, not enough data, and (fortunately) too many ethical constraints for the question to be probed by researchers in the social sciences.

If it turns out that parental detachment is a factor, then measures such as detailed ratings, etc. obviously aren't going to be of much help mitigating the problem. Parents might not care about the ratings, or not be aware of them, or may believe the games are an "outlet", or may simply see no harm in the fictitious violence. If school shootings become more commonplace, the question arises as to whether mass censorship of certain genres is the only effective solution.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 11, 2013 9:28:31 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jun 10, 2013 22:34:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

just so you get me right, here, whois:

i was raised around guns.  shot them when i was little.  was a member of the NRA at 14 (or custodial member- i can't remember if they gave me a full membership or not).  still own and shoot guns today.  it didn't make me violent.

what DID make me violent was the serial abuse of my father.  there is anecdotal for you.

but getting back to the point, i think the evidence is quite clear that exposure to violence and aggression makes kids and adults more violent and aggressive.  if you have evidence to the contrary, present it.  otherwise, i am not sure how much your situation or mine have to do with anything.

Those studies always bother me...because they only look at the few violence factors but leave out other major factors that cause unruly/violent children (like PARENTING).  What I've found is that the violent kids in my neighborhoods are from families that don't give a shit and have zero discipline over their "little angels."  When children are raised without boundaries, they don't know when to stop their bad actions.

they bother me, too.  however, not as much as the anecdotal "i shot a gun, and don't kill people" studies, which are about as scientific as a parakeet.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 11, 2013 9:38:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

If it's just toy guns/video games/etc that make people go on mass shooting sprees why are there psychologists on TV after every shooting saying these people are bat shit crazy and there's no way to predict/control it?
 
It's human nature to want to rationalize and find an easy logical solution, but in the end giving up toy guns is a meaningless gesture.  It doesn't stop or solve anything.  You can't control crazy.

red herring.  we are not talking about controlling crazy, any more than speed limits "control fatal accidents".

[djAdvocate]

Jun 11, 2013 10:14:54 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 11, 2013 9:38:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

If it's just toy guns/video games/etc that make people go on mass shooting sprees why are there psychologists on TV after every shooting saying these people are bat shit crazy and there's no way to predict/control it?
 
It's human nature to want to rationalize and find an easy logical solution, but in the end giving up toy guns is a meaningless gesture.  It doesn't stop or solve anything.  You can't control crazy.

Let me play Devil's advocate in this case.

Research can easily verify the existence of (or non-existence of) a causal link between violent video games and mass shootings. Simply look at the number of people who play violent games, look at the number of shootings, and acknowledge that there are hundreds of millions in the first group and only a handful of individuals in the latter. You're not going to get a particularly high correlation.

But the question gets a lot stickier if violent games are just one ingredient among several. .

i would posit that any scientific study worth it's salt would isolate for those variables.  are you claiming that the study in question (and many others) did NOT do so?

[djAdvocate]

Jun 11, 2013 10:14:54 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 11, 2013 9:38:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

If it's just toy guns/video games/etc that make people go on mass shooting sprees why are there psychologists on TV after every shooting saying these people are bat shit crazy and there's no way to predict/control it?
 
It's human nature to want to rationalize and find an easy logical solution, but in the end giving up toy guns is a meaningless gesture.  It doesn't stop or solve anything.  You can't control crazy.

Let me play Devil's advocate in this case.

Research can easily verify the existence of (or non-existence of) a causal link between violent video games and mass shootings. Simply look at the number of people who play violent games, look at the number of shootings, and acknowledge that there are hundreds of millions in the first group and only a handful of individuals in the latter. You're not going to get a particularly high correlation.

But the question gets a lot stickier if violent games are just one ingredient among several. The formula might be something as simple as Schizophrenia + Violent Games = Violent Crimes, or something significantly more complicated. Not only does this take us into more rarefied territory research-wise, there are countless possible linkages we'd need to examine. Furthermore, in the inevitable cases where we did find strong correlations for specific 'recipes', we'd need to establish the correlation wasn't spurious and that the video game element was causative.

Realistically this isn't possible. Not only is there not enough time and reliable data, but establishing causation through controlled experiments would violate even the most permissive university's code of ethics. Ergo we must acknowledge that there may exist a causative link between video games and violent behaviour, and that science is ostensibly blind to it.

This is a far cry from proof, of course, but opponents of violent games do have the argument on their side that Lanza, Cho, Harris, et al. all appear to have nurtured their love of violence using video games.

1) the studies i am thinking of have nothing to do with video games.  they predate video games by a number of years. 
2) you can do studies which show IMMEDIATE impact on behavior, and then measure how the OBSERVED behavior changes over time.  in these cases, it is 100% clear where the behavior came from, as all other variables are isolated.
3) these studies have been duplicated so many times that i don't really consider them controversial.

for a guy who can write a 1000 word math proof, you really seem to have a lot of skepticism about science.  i am putting it lightly.  disdain is the word i wanted to use.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jun 11, 2013 10:54:22 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 11, 2013 9:38:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

If it's just toy guns/video games/etc that make people go on mass shooting sprees why are there psychologists on TV after every shooting saying these people are bat shit crazy and there's no way to predict/control it?
 
It's human nature to want to rationalize and find an easy logical solution, but in the end giving up toy guns is a meaningless gesture.  It doesn't stop or solve anything.  You can't control crazy.

red herring.  we are not talking about controlling crazy, any more than speed limits "control fatal accidents".

It's not a red herring.....it's an argument that people who commit these crimes already have a mental disorder and blaming their actions on the games (as opposed to the actual disorder) is attempting to place blame in the wrong spot.  It's not different than arguing that people who commit crimes ate pizza within the past week, so that must be the reason for committing crimes.  It doesn't matter that millions of people eat pizza (or play games that some would consider violent) without committing a crime, all that matters is the agenda that some people don't like the games, and they will find any correlation possible to attempt to place blame on them (as opposed to looking at the true cause).