djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 16, 2013 12:34:03 GMT -5
do the ladies on the board care if rohypnol is legalized?<br><br>i realize our "drug war" is a losing fight.....but it doesnt have to be<br><br>closing our borders....and i mean closing them, would help the drug war immensely<br><br>then we just have to find and eradicate our domestic producers<br><br>if no product...the drug war disappears<br><br>or as close as possible to ending i think this is a good point of argument, gd. if a drug will nearly universally be used for criminal acts, it should be illegal for the same reason as hand grenades are illegal. a good example is a drug called Devil's Breath. not to be messed with at all. no sensible person would use it, any sooner than they would use Anthrax recreationally.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 12:42:05 GMT -5
One of the problems with drugs seems to be the varying levels of acceptance of what's OK. Since there is no common response for any chemical ingested, it's a real can of worms.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 12:43:11 GMT -5
how many more users will we have?
if you think zero, you are kidding yourself
ok...so now we have x (current users) + y (new users) of various drugs that become available and legal
how many users become non productive? and does the state/feds take care of them?
if they become addicts, are they left on their own....or do they become more people on the government teat?
i know we have dui's now.....but if this stuff becomes legal, how many more will we have?
are we okay with the rise in highway deaths this will cause?
i know...i am a downer....but i think these are valid concerns
and i am sure, i am missing some.....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 12:45:51 GMT -5
btw what the hell is happening with the posts
why all the <br> replacing the new lines?
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Apr 16, 2013 12:48:40 GMT -5
Sounds good to me DJ.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 16, 2013 12:57:57 GMT -5
One of the problems with drugs seems to be the varying levels of acceptance of what's OK. Since there is no common response for any chemical ingested, it's a real can of worms. that is probably why LEAP took the position they did.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 16, 2013 13:00:46 GMT -5
how many more users will we have? if you think zero, you are kidding yourself ok...so now we have x (current users) + y (new users) of various drugs that become available and legal how many users become non productive? and does the state/feds take care of them? if they become addicts, are they left on their own....or do they become more people on the government teat? i know we have dui's now.....but if this stuff becomes legal, how many more will we have? are we okay with the rise in highway deaths this will cause? i know...i am a downer....but i think these are valid concerns and i am sure, i am missing some..... that is a dandy negative argument, but consider the positive one: if i won't get incarcerated for my casual use, three things will happen of societal benefit: 1) i might actually get the treatment i need if i am addicted -vs- now, where i rot away in prison 2) i might be able to function using my drugs recreationally -vs- being turned into a convict underclass 3) i might "grow the f(*k up" and stop casually using drugs (most people do) -vs- having an arrest record which diminishes my chances in life.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 16, 2013 13:02:18 GMT -5
by the way, DUI is DUI no matter whether the substance is legal or not. but for the record, i know a lot more people that have driven drunk than have driven stoned. stoners are paranoid, typically. the idea that they MIGHT get pulled over is terrifying to them when they are high.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 14:44:01 GMT -5
as a controller in my job, i tend to think in "mights" and "maybes" i look for contingent liabilities that could affect my business i can see so many issues with legalizing a lot of these substances i see a lot of BAD possibilities...and really not many positive ones taxes collected would be positive....but not if we spend that plus more on the new addicts 1) i might actually get the treatment i need if i am addicted -vs- now, where i rot away in prison 2) i might be able to function using my drugs recreationally -vs- being turned into a convict underclass 3) i might "grow the f(*k up" and stop casually using drugs (most people do) -vs- having an arrest record which diminishes my chances in life.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 16, 2013 15:19:16 GMT -5
as a controller in my job, i tend to think in "mights" and "maybes" i look for contingent liabilities that could affect my business i can see so many issues with legalizing a lot of these substances i see a lot of BAD possibilities...and really not many positive ones taxes collected would be positive....but not if we spend that plus more on the new addicts 1) i might actually get the treatment i need if i am addicted -vs- now, where i rot away in prison 2) i might be able to function using my drugs recreationally -vs- being turned into a convict underclass 3) i might "grow the f(*k up" and stop casually using drugs (most people do) -vs- having an arrest record which diminishes my chances in life.
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as a business owner, i only have ONE standard: can the person in question safely and productively perform their work. if they can't, they have no business in my shop, no mater whether they are impaired or not.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Apr 16, 2013 21:22:52 GMT -5
as a controller in my job, i tend to think in "mights" and "maybes" i look for contingent liabilities that could affect my business i can see so many issues with legalizing a lot of these substances i see a lot of BAD possibilities...and really not many positive ones taxes collected would be positive....but not if we spend that plus more on the new addicts 1) i might actually get the treatment i need if i am addicted -vs- now, where i rot away in prison 2) i might be able to function using my drugs recreationally -vs- being turned into a convict underclass 3) i might "grow the f(*k up" and stop casually using drugs (most people do) -vs- having an arrest record which diminishes my chances in life.
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We would be hard pressed to spend more on new addicts compared to how much we spend on the criminal justice system. And I see no reason companies couldn't continue to drug test.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 17, 2013 2:07:52 GMT -5
Was going to bed then started reading this thread, good points throughout.. I respect what you're saying G, and I was on the same side as you when they announced the safe injection site in East Hastings in Vancouver. Since they opened the site there has been a 50% reduction of people using around the site. So it gets them off the street to a point. Once they are in there they are treating them and trying to get the off of it and on a better path. They do reach some and their figures are for every dollar spent on the site, they save around $4 on later medical costs. Some more numbers for you now, these are 2001-2006 and I don't have the numbers for after the crash, however there are enough years from Portugal to get some stats about what happens when all those funds that are used to fight a losing battle are used to treat the issues. Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?
Rhyhpnol(sp?), Oxy, and a whole list of other drugs are controlled drugs and technically are "legal" and the fact is that kids do things because they aren't supposed to. Not only that, if you try to force them to do things a lot of times they will just do the opposite because that is what teenagers do for some reason.(hormones) With the amount of law enforcement personnel and govt officials that have come out and said that this is an unattainable war I think it's truly time to look at the situation in a completely different way. All we are doing right now is throwing good money after bad and it's costing the taxpayer in the end either way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 8:11:50 GMT -5
i am only one opinion
it seems the numbers are on your side (at least on this site)
i agree the war on drugs has been a bust
closing the border gets rid of a lot of issues (no supply, no drug issue)
saying it and doing it are two different things....i realize that, but it can be done, if we WANT TO
but that leaves our domestic producers of pot, meth, and other assundry items
if we concentrate on the manufacturers, and not the users, we can do much better
i have seen what drugs can do to a life.....
no supplies = high cost, and less using
that is the way we win....at least in my opinion
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 17, 2013 8:25:05 GMT -5
... closing the border ... This would need to be closing the border s (about 7,500 miles) and the coast lines (around 6,000 miles if you don't include Alaska and Hawaii), including land, water, and airspace to be effective.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 8:38:34 GMT -5
... closing the border ... This would need to be closing the border s (about 7,500 miles) and the coast lines (around 6,000 miles if you don't include Alaska and Hawaii), including land, water, and airspace to be effective. easily done if we close a few bases in other parts of the world, and assign troops here at home also helps the economy...they spend their money here, not in Germany or Italy Keep a few open in needed areas....close the rest Our navy and coast guard cant protect our borders? Our Army cant sit on the border, making sure no one crosses?
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Apr 17, 2013 9:22:44 GMT -5
drugs are a lot like other products, it is cheaper to produce outside the country and import; I believe even if we could close the borders 100% all that would do is increase domestic production and raise the prices.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2013 12:19:31 GMT -5
i am only one opinion it seems the numbers are on your side (at least on this site) i agree the war on drugs has been a bust closing the border gets rid of a lot of issues (no supply, no drug issue) saying it and doing it are two different things....i realize that, but it can be done, if we WANT TO but that leaves our domestic producers of pot, meth, and other assundry items if we concentrate on the manufacturers, and not the users, we can do much better i have seen what drugs can do to a life..... no supplies = high cost, and less using that is the way we win....at least in my opinion imo, this is a great issue for conservatives. if we legalized and regulated drugs, we could tax the shit out of them, and use the money for enforcing regulations rather than incarcerating people. win-win.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2013 12:20:41 GMT -5
Well pot is well on its way to being legalized now, so that battle is almost over. and make no mistake about it: this is a big deal. 50% of all drug arrests are for pot. it is L.A.M.E. legalize pot, and we are half way there.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2013 12:22:07 GMT -5
This would need to be closing the border s (about 7,500 miles) and the coast lines (around 6,000 miles if you don't include Alaska and Hawaii), including land, water, and airspace to be effective. easily done if we close a few bases in other parts of the world, and assign troops here at home also helps the economy...they spend their money here, not in Germany or Italy Keep a few open in needed areas....close the rest Our navy and coast guard cant protect our borders? Our Army cant sit on the border, making sure no one crosses? great idea. a review of how our competition works is very informative. how many foreign bases does Russia have? ONE. how many does China have? ZERO. qed
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2013 12:23:00 GMT -5
drugs are a lot like other products, it is cheaper to produce outside the country and import; I believe even if we could close the borders 100% all that would do is increase domestic production and raise the prices. this would be a very welcome result, if you are asking gd.
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 17, 2013 13:00:19 GMT -5
Do we still arrest people under the influence of drugs behind the car that kills innocent people like we do Alcohol? Or is even open alcohol containers become legal?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2013 13:13:55 GMT -5
Do we still arrest people under the influence of drugs behind the car that kills innocent people like we do Alcohol? Or is even open alcohol containers become legal? no. DUI is still a crime, whether the drugs are legal or not, just as today. i am not sure how open container laws work if you tooting coke tho.
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 17, 2013 13:20:43 GMT -5
Do we still arrest people under the influence of drugs behind the car that kills innocent people like we do Alcohol? Or is even open alcohol containers become legal? no. DUI is still a crime, whether the drugs are legal or not, just as today. i am not sure how open container laws work if you tooting coke tho. we talking Coca Cola or Coke? In Indiana, you can be arrested for an open container of beer or liquor while driving. Granted 98% of the time the driver is probably embiding, but still 2% of them are caught up in the long net of the law.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2013 13:27:50 GMT -5
no. DUI is still a crime, whether the drugs are legal or not, just as today. i am not sure how open container laws work if you tooting coke tho. we talking Coca Cola or Coke? In Indiana, you can be arrested for an open container of beer or liquor while driving. Granted 98% of the time the driver is probably embiding, but still 2% of them are caught up in the long net of the law. personally? i think open container laws are lame, ok? if you are intoxicated, you shouldn't drive. if you are not, they shouldn't mess with you.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2013 13:42:49 GMT -5
In Maine you can be arrested for driving under the influence of any drug, including prescribed drugs. It is called Impaired Driving. same here in CA. including SLEEP DEPRIVAL.
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 17, 2013 14:12:59 GMT -5
... Our navy and coast guard cant protect our borders? Our Army cant sit on the border, making sure no one crosses? Protect? Yes Stop every small boat from coming ashore? No Sit on the border? Sure. Make it an impenetrable wall? No. The Air Force also can't stop every single plane from flying across the border either.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 18, 2013 0:37:07 GMT -5
i am only one opinion it seems the numbers are on your side (at least on this site) i agree the war on drugs has been a bust closing the border gets rid of a lot of issues (no supply, no drug issue) saying it and doing it are two different things....i realize that, but it can be done, if we WANT TO but that leaves our domestic producers of pot, meth, and other assundry items if we concentrate on the manufacturers, and not the users, we can do much better i have seen what drugs can do to a life..... no supplies = high cost, and less using that is the way we win....at least in my opinion Trust me G, I was of the same opinion as you when they(The Liberal Party) started talking about a safe injection site in Vancouver, I had just lost a friend to drugs around the same time. I had arguments with some of my friends about it, and they just kept making the point that it's about getting them off the streets and trying to make it so they are productive and don't end up in jail or in the hospital or dead. I still say that a junkie will always be a junkie, case and point Ozzy falling off the wagon over the last year. I agree with you about boarder security and I think it's going to be interesting to see the Chinese being forced into policing the world, while you guys get to focus more on your own economy and what you can do to make the USA and even better place. Legalizing pot(a plant) will take care of almost all of the growers, and that is why they're against legalizing cannabis and support keeping it illegal. The gross, dirty meth heads will make that shit out of whatever they can get their hands on. They have tried to control it buy making the drug store ingredients(cold and flu meds) harder to get for them, and it really hasn't worked. I would like to see more stats like the ones from Portugal, but if making it so that drugs aren't cool because your being bad doing them and just getting the junkies off the streets works, AND saves us money as taxpayers; I don't know what else to say but let the junkies do junk, they are going to if it's legal or not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 8:57:13 GMT -5
... Our navy and coast guard cant protect our borders? Our Army cant sit on the border, making sure no one crosses? Protect? Yes Stop every small boat from coming ashore? No Sit on the border? Sure. Make it an impenetrable wall? No. The Air Force also can't stop every single plane from flying across the border either. i think you would be surprised at what we CAN do...the question is whether or not we WANT to with the sophistication of radar, a rowboat shows up as a blip and if we have our destroyers patrolling the waters, we can stop all (most 98.5% would be my guess) boat traffic we dont need to stop all air travel....just planes not designated for airports with import/customs agents again...we have the ability.....but do we have the desire to do so
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Apr 18, 2013 9:35:50 GMT -5
Protect? Yes Stop every small boat from coming ashore? No Sit on the border? Sure. Make it an impenetrable wall? No. The Air Force also can't stop every single plane from flying across the border either. i think you would be surprised at what we CAN do...the question is whether or not we WANT to with the sophistication of radar, a rowboat shows up as a blip and if we have our destroyers patrolling the waters, we can stop all boat traffic we dont need to stop all air travel....just planes not designated for airports with import/customs agents again...we have the ability.....but do we have the desire to do so This would still not stop 100% and the costs would be considerable. And as long as there is a demand there will be supply
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2013 10:05:14 GMT -5
it is not only a waste of resources, it is fundamentally stupid.
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