Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 9, 2011 17:19:30 GMT -5
There is an easy solution to this, make a Federal Judge available to issue the court orders. No need to trample on rights.
Common sense, again.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 9, 2011 17:21:19 GMT -5
I suspect they are somewhat legitimate I believe more then "somewhat..." they have been influenced by 9/11, they have been training for years for these attacks, finding smaller but as deadly ways to spread terror and damage to innocents, goten more sophisticated, if nothing more then to speak as little as possible on anything electric, no writings left hanging around, so many with legal credentials who move freely around th world who are smart enough not to "Look and dress " as terrorist, how about care free tourist on holiday, with the loud shirts and Bermuda shorts and white socks wearing brown shoes..a terrorist as they pass through? "Naaaa , just another loud mouth American , the idiots." says the guy assigned to look and spot the suspicious types, so many influenced by the actions by the "Saten" in catching and doing away with their colleges, so revenge is a good motive, realization that it doesn't have to be a 9/11 size action to spread the terror, oh yeah, we are ripe. ------------------------------------------------------------------- "As I have said before, we cannot guarantee that there will never be another terrorist attack, and we cannot seal our country under a glass dome," Napolitano said. "However, we continue to do everything we can to reduce the risk of terrorism in our nation." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Any help we can give them, to me it's fine and I'll take Burns concerns under advisement and still give them all the help I can , regarding some manipulation of rights, manipulate them if it helps, and take my chances on Burns suggestion of a possible government real reason for the Patriot Act.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 17:22:49 GMT -5
One of the three provisions, Section 206 of the Patriot Act, provides for roving wiretap surveillance of targets who try to thwart Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) surveillance. Without such roving wiretap authority, investigators would be forced to seek a new court order each time they need to change the location, phone or computer that needs to be monitored. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3137#ixzz1DV7YdXBjI really believe this provision is needed because of the change in our phone usage - and is no more intrusive than the old system was when all we used were land lines. Just a case here of law enforcement catching up with technology There is an easy solution to this, make a Federal Judge available to issue the court orders. No need to trample on rights. One judge nationwide? There are not enough Federal judges out there to have them immediately available - and sometimes the wire needs to be right now - tactics need to have totally changed when recent technology became readily available. Otherwise law enforcement will not be able to protect us from terror but only be in a position of figuring out what happened after the fact.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 17:27:04 GMT -5
One of the three provisions, Section 206 of the Patriot Act, provides for roving wiretap surveillance of targets who try to thwart Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) surveillance. Without such roving wiretap authority, investigators would be forced to seek a new court order each time they need to change the location, phone or computer that needs to be monitored. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3137&page=2#ixzz1DVGNVbDHI think the difference is that the overhear authority is now attaching to an individual subject (court approved) and not a specific phone number
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Feb 9, 2011 17:29:24 GMT -5
There is an easy solution to this, make a Federal Judge available to issue the court orders. No need to trample on rights. One judge nationwide? There are not enough Federal judges out there to have them immediately available - and sometimes the wire needs to be right now - tactics need to have totally changed when recent technology became readily available. Otherwise law enforcement will not be able to protect us from terror but only be in a position of figuring out what happened after the fact. Please show me the statistics that backup the claim that there are not enough Federal Judges out there to have them available immediately. Right, because if they cannot do what they want without regard to our freedoms they can't protect us. Why not give them unlimited power? Then we should be completely safe? My guess is that they would not be able to get a court order because they would not be able to show any cause. This is a way for them to "protect" us without being held accountable.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 17:33:09 GMT -5
One judge nationwide? There are not enough Federal judges out there to have them immediately available - and sometimes the wire needs to be right now - tactics need to have totally changed when recent technology became readily available. Otherwise law enforcement will not be able to protect us from terror but only be in a position of figuring out what happened after the fact. Please show me the statistics that backup the claim that there are not enough Federal Judges out there to have them available immediately. Right, because if they cannot do what they want without regard to our freedoms they can't protect us. Why not give them unlimited power? Then we should be completely safe? My guess is that they would not be able to get a court order because they would not be able to show any cause. This is a way for them to "protect" us without being held accountable. 1. Judges spend their day in court and they are not immediately available. 2. There are court orders but under the old rules - the order attaches to specific phone numbers - and times have changed. It would or does make sense to me to have the order attach to the subject and not a specific phone
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 17:37:10 GMT -5
I am thinking-- so many have slipped through the HLS net.. we need more....then I think-- SO many have slipped through the HLS net..it is not working.. hence my grey zone. Thx for the input, everyone. I see all of your points as valid. This one is tough.
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Feb 9, 2011 17:43:39 GMT -5
One of the three provisions, Section 206 of the Patriot Act, provides for roving wiretap surveillance of targets who try to thwart Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) surveillance. Without such roving wiretap authority, investigators would be forced to seek a new court order each time they need to change the location, phone or computer that needs to be monitored. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3137&page=2#ixzz1DVGNVbDHI think the difference is that the overhear authority is now attaching to an individual subject (court approved) and not a specific phone number Computers are already provided for, this only applies to telephones en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roving_wiretapThe real issue is why should people have to worry about the government listening in on their phones that a suspected terrorist may have used 10 years ago.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 9, 2011 17:46:22 GMT -5
What is so wrong to do a event under the act ..as needed..then go to the judge to let them know what has been done. If th judge then finds in his/her mind the act was not needed it's rescinded. The ones doing the act will have a good idea of what was acceptable and what isn't , not wanting to be judged calling wolf to often, these are professional in the business, this way nation is protected, and over site for protections still done.
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Feb 9, 2011 17:47:24 GMT -5
Judges spend their day in court doing exactly what we are talking about. Assign a judge whose sole purpose is to review and sign court orders if they are needed so quickly. Assign two if needed.
You are willing to give up those rights, others are not.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Feb 9, 2011 17:50:49 GMT -5
For things that are time sensitive I think they can at least obtain a warrant after the fact, the warrant would have be justified by evidence received before the wiretap, that is you can't use what you wiretapped to justify the wiretap.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 19:03:43 GMT -5
You are willing to give up those rights, others are not. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3137&page=2#ixzz1DVdpeEh0What are you giving up? They have a warrant for a phone number, the alleged terrorist buys a new cell phone - now law enforcement has to go back to a judge and get a new warrant - it isn't as easy as you all seem to think and time is lost On the other hand - the warrant could follow the individual and would take a lot of probable cause to get it against an individual - it follows that person, and no one else Unless you are a targeted terrorist - you are not losing any rights that I can se
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 19:05:53 GMT -5
And just out of curiosity - how do you all feel about TSA and their new procedures?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 19:14:11 GMT -5
I don't care much about TSA. Not sure it will help, though. We saw the underwear bomber. If you google around you will see there are now exploding breast implants, bombs in cavities in teeth, etc. I do not think we can stay a step ahead of these idiots. But- if someone seeing me naked through some weird filter at the airport MAY help I do not care. I am starting to feel like I am living in a video game, truth be told. Wondering if all humanity is a pawn..... time will tell, and I really hope I am wrong.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 19:22:35 GMT -5
I don't care much about TSA. Not sure it will help, though. We saw the underwear bomber. If you google around you will see there are now exploding breast implants, bombs in cavities in teeth, etc. I do not think we can stay a step ahead of these idiots. But- if someone seeing me naked through some weird filter at the airport MAY help I do not care. I am starting to feel like I am living in a video game, truth be told. Wondering if all humanity is a pawn..... time will tell, and I really hope I am wrong. I don't have any great answers - but I have been trying to make a point that technology has really changed - and law enforcement needs to have a few changes also - or they will only be tracking down who committed a crime or terrorist act but never be able to prevent one.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 9, 2011 19:36:36 GMT -5
"But- if someone seeing me naked through some weird filter at the airport MAY help I do not care. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me either Krickett , in fact if you show me yours I'll show you mine and when I see yours I promise , I won't giggle. You might though {sigh}}
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 19:56:29 GMT -5
Dez-- let's just LOL and get it over with, as someone said... vonnie-- I get your point. I have to agree. It REALLY sux that ANYONE can intrude on our rights as law abiding citizens-- but, geez-- people want to KILL us, and we need to utilize everything we can to catch them. Deal is-- I wonder how much time is wasted on people that think like I do, maybe visit Alex Jones website, etc. THAT is the issue. I see what HLS does on the border-- they are LYING, people. I am not at all sure who our gov't thinks the enemy IS. I read the message boards, hear what people say.... I wonder-- could everyone say in a few words who they think is the enemy of the USA?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 9, 2011 20:04:08 GMT -5
Can't , against the C of C. Sorry
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 20:05:49 GMT -5
Dez-- let's just LOL and get it over with, as someone said... vonnie-- I get your point. I have to agree. It REALLY sux that ANYONE can intrude on our rights as law abiding citizens-- but, geez-- people want to KILL us, and we need to utilize everything we can to catch them. Deal is-- I wonder how much time is wasted on people that think like I do, maybe visit Alex Jones website, etc. THAT is the issue. I see what HLS does on the border-- they are LYING, people. I am not at all sure who our gov't thinks the enemy IS. I read the message boards, hear what people say.... I wonder-- could everyone say in a few words who they think is the enemy of the USA? I spent some time on the Joint Terrorism Task Force - those people concentrate on and are really serious about preventing another 9/11 - but they are only one (albeit awesome) are of the gov't
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 20:06:35 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 9, 2011 20:31:58 GMT -5
Dez-- let's just LOL and get it over with, as someone said... vonnie-- I get your point. I have to agree. It REALLY sux that ANYONE can intrude on our rights as law abiding citizens-- but, geez-- people want to KILL us, and we need to utilize everything we can to catch them. Deal is-- I wonder how much time is wasted on people that think like I do, maybe visit Alex Jones website, etc. THAT is the issue. I see what HLS does on the border-- they are LYING, people. I am not at all sure who our gov't thinks the enemy IS. I read the message boards, hear what people say.... I wonder-- could everyone say in a few words who they think is the enemy of the USA? I spent some time on the Joint Terrorism Task Force - those people concentrate on and are really serious about preventing another 9/11 - but they are only one (albeit awesome) are of the gov't While there did aspects of the Patriot act enter into their dealings and did it make them more efficient in your and those participating opinions. Were aspects of the act important at all or really didn't come into play?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 20:50:39 GMT -5
I spent some time on the Joint Terrorism Task Force - those people concentrate on and are really serious about preventing another 9/11 - but they are only one (albeit awesome) are of the gov't While there did aspects of the Patriot act enter into their dealings and did it make them more efficient in your and those participating opinions. Were aspects of the act important at all or really didn't come into play? I was retiring as the act came into play - but the wire tap (phone # vs person) seemed to be hugely helpful The reality then - and probably now - was that the public always expected us to be ahead of any event - but at the same time very suspicious or resentful of most investigative techniques - It often seemed that we were expected to stand there and ferret out possible events using ESP but not infringing on any one's privacy Bottom line - if law enforcement is going to be effective, they have to be nosy - they really do not have ESP It's a balancing act between public safety and privacy rights
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 9, 2011 21:10:37 GMT -5
While there did aspects of the Patriot act enter into their dealings and did it make them more efficient in your and those participating opinions. Were aspects of the act important at all or really didn't come into play? I was retiring as the act came into play - but the wire tap (phone # vs person) seemed to be hugely helpful The reality then - and probably now - was that the public always expected us to be ahead of any event - but at the same time very suspicious or resentful of most investigative techniques - It often seemed that we were expected to stand there and ferret out possible events using ESP but not infringing on any one's privacy Bottom line - if law enforcement is going to be effective, they have to be nosy - they really do not have ESP It's a balancing act between public safety and privacy rights Thsnks for the reply to the request, informative. I once called the FBI on a post on some unformation posted on a forum I was on. I can't remember the exacts but it was very suspeciouse believe me, a alarmist I am not in any way. I made sure I had all the information to identify, gave a call after going to 800 information..a agent came on and I apologized for bothering him but told him what ever I wanted to tell him, for a million I can't rememeber , and as he was taking down the information he suddenly said wait one and came back and said it had already been reported and being handled.. I mentioned I must sound like a nut but he came right back with "absolutly not, if you think we and others can see any and all forget it, we{they} need this information , then we'll check it out..in all of it , there always the real chance that there will be a gem in there". Thanked me and we went om our way. your response reminded me of that. Actually now as I type , it was against Obama right after his election and not the simple rant, a ed rant, this was seriouse threatening writing that really got to me. Funny how things come back to you.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 21:15:55 GMT -5
I was retiring as the act came into play - but the wire tap (phone # vs person) seemed to be hugely helpful The reality then - and probably now - was that the public always expected us to be ahead of any event - but at the same time very suspicious or resentful of most investigative techniques - It often seemed that we were expected to stand there and ferret out possible events using ESP but not infringing on any one's privacy Bottom line - if law enforcement is going to be effective, they have to be nosy - they really do not have ESP It's a balancing act between public safety and privacy rights Thsnks for the reply to the request, informative. I once called the FBI on a post on some unformation posted on a forum I was on. I can't remember the exacts but it was very suspeciouse believe me, a alarmist I am not in any way. I made sure I had all the information to identify, gave a call after going to 800 information..a agent came on and I apologized for bothering him but told him what ever I wanted to tell him, for a million I can't rememeber , and as he was taking down the information he suddenly said wait one and came back and said it had already been reported and being handled.. I mentioned I must sound like a nut but he came right back with "absolutly not, if you think we and others can see any and all forget it, we{they} need this information , then we'll check it out..in all of it , there always the real chance that there will be a gem in there". Thanked me and we went om our way. your response reminded me of that. Actually now as I type , it was against Obama right after his election and not the simple rant, a ed rant, this was seriouse threatening writing that really got to me. Funny how things come back to you. Most Federal law enforcement really try hard to do their job well and know that they really need to be in partnership with their fellow citizens
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Post by marjar on Feb 9, 2011 21:23:39 GMT -5
Vonnie- You've nailed part of the problem. The intel communities appear to be playing catch up more often than not. We adjust our security measures based on each new attack or attempted attack, after the fact. The bad guys are always one step ahead of us. Which, does not make me feel safer, but does make me wonder when breast exams and body cavity searches are going to be part of airport security.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 21:32:37 GMT -5
I guess I have to go with the things vonnie says. Call me a traitor, I guess, if that is how it looks to some, but I have kids, and grandbabies, and we don't break the law, so we have nothing to fear. I hope. Whatever. It does not matter what I think one way or the other.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 21:57:31 GMT -5
Vonnie- You've nailed part of the problem. The intel communities appear to be playing catch up more often than not. We adjust our security measures based on each new attack or attempted attack, after the fact. The bad guys are always one step ahead of us. Which, does not make me feel safer, but does make me wonder when breast exams and body cavity searches are going to be part of airport security. I am not sure what to say here - other than I have lost interest in flying
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 9, 2011 22:03:53 GMT -5
I guess I have to go with the things vonnie says. Call me a traitor, I guess, if that is how it looks to some, but I have kids, and grandbabies, and we don't break the law, so we have nothing to fear. I hope. Whatever. It does not matter what I think one way or the other. I go with your initially posts on this topic - the very, very grey areas between public safety and our American liberties - there are no clear cut answers and I believe there will be a lot of incidents (hopefully not too tragic), court cases etc trying to resolve these issue - and they might never be resolved more than temporarily
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 9, 2011 23:57:49 GMT -5
Possible a way to look at it is not to look at it so deeply.
Since we now have a volunteer military, just a small % of the populace of our country is goingto be serving in that capacity anymore.
No more 16 million served as in WW2, the draft long gone so after the war all those who had to serve two years if drafted and if serving their time in the Reserves or National guard, six months active with 5 1/2 in reserves , weekly drills and two weeks active service that churned a lot of the young people mostly male but female too through the system. No longer the large #'s needed .
All who served active Regular service , Reserves/National Guard what ever branch, as soon as they stepped forward. swore allegiance, that instance, they all gave up certain rights , replaced with other rights. They put their trust into the hands of the government to look out for them and take care of them, the payback for that care was to follow the orders of those placed above them, carry out the missions assigned to them by their superiors.
Was everything perfect, were all officers and non commissioned officers over the troops paragons of virtue and perfect commanders? Of course not but most were and took their responsibilities seriously.
Some what what we have now. We are at war now, again. There are people , forces who want to do us harm for what ever reason. While they may not be nations they are still as much , if not more so , due to the weapons that they have or might have , as deadly or more so, the threat is very real .
Especially as it seems these new enemies are not interested in acting against our military forces but seem to prefer the civilian and commercial targets of our country which makes it especially heinous and deadly. go The fact is , they can cause great disruption and destruction and the target's they do after are untrained in defense and very vulnerable instead of trained and protected if they were military targets.
There are forces of the country who are appointed to look out for us, protect us and to combat the unseen enemy. As our conventional military forces need the tools to do their jobs , which are the latest weapons, the forces who are combating the invisible enemies , the non national armies who would wish us harm also need weapons but in many cases , a different type of weapon.
Since the enemy they fight is invisible, no standing army our forces need weapons that will help identify them and to get those weapons , we the civilians have to sacrifice as the one who serves openly in our standing military sacrifice.
Our sacrifice is to give up some of our rights, the same as the serving forces do to give those who protect us the weapons needed for our protection.
There has to be the same trust given to the government to look after us as best they can as the serving ones have done, the trust that our government will not abuse us because of the lessoning of certain rights that were needed to make our fight against our enemies successful.
There has to be a sacrifice , there has to be a trust.
It has nothing to do with who particularly is running the government , that is like a leaf flying on the wind, here , there, then gone and another takes its place, but the battle, the war, that, it seems will be with us for a very long time, through many leaves in the wind.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 10, 2011 9:25:15 GMT -5
I am deeply disappointed that Rep.Joe Walsh,one of the newest teaparty voices who has been among the loudest in decrying the abuse of government power,the overreach of authority,the intrusivness of it in our lives ,voted to extend the Patriot Act provisions.
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