Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2013 12:44:59 GMT -5
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Colleenz
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Post by Colleenz on Feb 23, 2013 12:49:19 GMT -5
I made a conscious choice to spend more time with my kid vs following the VP track. Nothing against women who put their career first or SAHMS. There is nothing subconscious about it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 23, 2013 13:36:13 GMT -5
Well, I do agree with the message that women are often their own worst enimies in the workplace. That they often sabatoge themselves, and it's not always the mean old women hating bosses.
We even see it on this very message board. It seems every month or two we get a post from a woman along the lines of "should I apply for this job/promotion or not, I only meet 80% of the qualifications for it."
It also seems many women value a friendly work enviornment over money. You don't see too many men saying they don't want to leave their jobs because they like their bosses and co workers and are willing to accept getting underpaid to stay.
There's nothing wrong with valuing kids/family/co workers over money. But you can't then turn around and complain how all the bosses are men and how men are running the world.
As Gahndi said, "You have to be the change you want to see in the world."
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Feb 23, 2013 16:39:01 GMT -5
I made a conscious choice to spend more time with my kid vs following the VP track. Nothing against women who put their career first or SAHMS. There is nothing subconscious about it. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif) I try to live very deliberately and be aware of my decisions and behaviors and think the program sounds GREAT if it encourages more women to do that. OTOH, I think men should do it too. And I don't think conscious decisions and confidence only pertain to careers.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 23, 2013 16:54:29 GMT -5
I don't think women should worry too much about a "glass cealing." I bet in 20-30 years, women will be over represtend in high level positions in business and politics. Women are earning more degrees at all levels and young women in many mentropolotin areas are already outearning their male peers.
Just give it time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2013 17:18:02 GMT -5
My boss is a female around 40 years old. She talks about the plan she once had to get her masters degree and work toward a director position. Then children started to appear. After 4 children, her desire to move forward in her career is gone. She is now a coaster. At the same time, the male crop of managers coming up around the same time are now very much ahead of her in the pecking order.
What I don't want to see if some sort of affirmative action policy or law (under the veil of equal rights) reward her choices over her peers.
Now voluntary efforts like this "Lean in Circle" is exactly what is needed. Companies could encourage it by offering time off to attend sessions and funding for materials.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 23, 2013 17:21:48 GMT -5
"Do you think this puts too much of the onus on working women to work harder rather than focusing on corporate and government policies that penalize working families? Are you turned off by having a woman who's worth half a billion dollars telling women to work harder?"
What corporate or government policies do you think should be created in order to address this perceived inequality? As MMC put it, I don't think we need to mandate a certain percentage of managers are women.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Feb 23, 2013 18:48:40 GMT -5
Are you turned off by having a woman who's worth half a billion dollars telling women to work harder? No. Since she got that wealth by earning it, rather than inheriting it, I think she knows a lot more about being financially successful than I do. I appreciate the fact that she has taken an interest in mentoring other women. Her point about an equal division of labor is a good one. Most of the married working women I know take on the lion's share of housework and childcare. If that is a choice based on what is best for their family, more power to them. However, some of the women I know in this situation have just fallen into that pattern, and resent their spouse in addition to having less time/energy for their career.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Feb 23, 2013 23:12:04 GMT -5
If I was on a high-drive career path, I would consider joining such a group, or internalizing values and techniques from that successful members of the group demonstrate professionally.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Feb 24, 2013 2:27:34 GMT -5
I think it is a pretty good idea for young women who need an old girl network. The old boy network helps the young men grow and mentors them but women have been left out. When I got my first career job my ex and I talked over our options for things like taking time off for car repairs and decided it would harm my career if I missed too much work so we switch which of us took an unpaid day off for things like that.
I don't have children but if a woman wants to thrive she will need to treat them like an man would treat his children. Men who are up and coming usually have a wife to deal with the children so he can work longer hours. I think if a women doesn't have a husband to deal with the children she needs to have something like a nanny or nearby family. I only work with one mother but she has a SAHS who raises hers. She can work late as needed and never uses the toddlers as an excuse. She does have a photo of them and tells me about them but it doesn't affect her work. The men who have children never talk about them except special occasions like taking a day to drive them to college. Half the guys don't really mention anything about home life and some I don't know if they are married or have kids. My boss for example has a son and daughter and at least two grandkids. I saw his daughter and her two once and I think his son is in Florida but I don't know the names of the kids, grandkids or even his girl friend. He took his girl friend to get a new passport so I assume she is going on a cruise with him this week. Some young women chatter about weddings, babies, boyfriends and don't seem to see that as outside work. I have worked with men who would work 7 days a week for months long days but the wife took care of all the kid stuff so they could. I think an executive women like a judge or head of a hospital should have a SAHS or someone else to allow her to work like a man if she wants to get ahead. It is reasonable to not want to get ahead that much but then you can't complain.
Having older more experienced woman to mentor the young would be worth having. I don't know if the circle is as good as some of the men's clubs but it could be.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 24, 2013 5:47:24 GMT -5
Are you turned off by having a woman who's worth half a billion dollars telling women to work harder? No, because our priorities are different, and I choose the mantra "work smarter, not harder." Actually, I think that if women are interested in/aspire to become high level executives, they should be counseled to not have kids, especially if her partner is also in a high level position. I don't get the point of having kids if the kids will come in last and/or if the parents spend like 20 minutes of time with the kid a day. One summer, I worked as the Sunday babysitter for a wealthy family (in vacation resort sort of area). The parents ran a business. I worked Sunday so that their nanny could have a day off. Even on Sundays, in a vacation resort area, the parents were hardly around, maybe 3 hours-after breakfast for an hour then, after supper for bedtime. One day the mom proceeded to tell me how hard it was being a parent. They're notion of parenting is just much different than mine.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 24, 2013 7:32:17 GMT -5
Good luck getting Men to do their "share" of the housework. If my husband does anything he is "helping me out" He was supposed to get up at 5 am to help me clean. I sat here with the Alarm going off for 15 mins. And he is sound asleep. I am going to start my cleaning by vacuuming the master bedroom. Wish me luck.
Sent from my MB855 using proboards
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 7:43:50 GMT -5
Good luck getting Men to do their "share" of the housework. If my husband does anything he is "helping me out" He was supposed to get up at 5 am to help me clean. I sat here with the Alarm going off for 15 mins. And he is sound asleep. I am going to start my cleaning by vacuuming the master bedroom. Wish me luck. Sent from my MB855 using proboards Not all men are like that. My husband does as much with the house, and with our daughter as I do, including the night feedings (we bottle feed). He wanted a family with kids and picked a career where he could be involved. If he started putting more than half on me for any extended period of time (we ebb and flow it depending on work life), we would be having a come to Jesus talk.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 24, 2013 10:12:10 GMT -5
Good luck bean! I've struggled with that for years with dh.
The last 3 years have been getting progressively better though so there is hope!
I'd be interested in a group like this although I'm not about to put my kids on hold. I can see now patterns and mind sets that I fall into that have held me back in my career.
Dh works but we have opposite schedules and while its hard for him to call off work the reality is he is going to have to when the kids need something. He makes less, works less and has almost no upward mobility compared to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 11:23:20 GMT -5
Well, I do agree with the message that women are often their own worst enimies in the workplace. That they often sabatoge themselves, and it's not always the mean old women hating bosses. Of course - women are to blame for it all. No, the white man is.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 24, 2013 13:11:48 GMT -5
Well, I do agree with the message that women are often their own worst enimies in the workplace. That they often sabatoge themselves, and it's not always the mean old women hating bosses. Of course - women are to blame for it all. That's a dramatic oversimplification Rukh. I think women CAN achieve their dreams and become executives and CEO's and partner's in law firms if they want to. But as Cronowench put it, they have to treat their career like a man, by getting a supportive spouse, putting in the time and separating work from home life. They also have to realize they can't have it all. You can't have the corner office just work from 9:00 to 5:00 every night and take time off to see your kids games. These aren't sacrifices only women have to make, but career oriented men have to make as well. It'a all about priorities, and there's no right or wrong choice. I think women can reach their potential, but are they willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make it happen?
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Feb 25, 2013 10:59:19 GMT -5
I like the idea of women mentoring others. I'm personally re-thinking a lot of my career right now, and most of the people I trust and consider mentors are men, and don't quite understand all the pressures I face.
I'm actually reading The Feminine Mystique right now - and it's interesting that women didn't have to choose between a career or motherhood until the 1950's when society starting defining motherhood as it's own "career path."
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 25, 2013 11:50:05 GMT -5
I made a conscious choice to spend more time with my kid vs following the VP track. Nothing against women who put their career first or SAHMS. There is nothing subconscious about it. I agree. There is nothing wrong with having your own priorities. But before I had kids, I didn't slack off in school and choose some fluffy college major leading to a low paying 'pink collar ghetto' job so that insecure high school and college boys wouldn't be intimidated. (It's one thing of the pink collar job is your passion, but I've seen a lot of women put themselves into these jobs because they either have this idea of what a woman should be or think that paying the bills is the husband's job.) I made the most of my talents and the opportunities I was given, and didn't care if it turned off some random guy. It paid off well, because it turned out that the perfect guy for me couldn't earn enough to support a family, and my being able to pay all the bills so he could be a SAHD had given us and our children a much more relaxed lifestyle than what we would have if DH and I were both working low paying jobs.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 25, 2013 11:58:37 GMT -5
Good luck getting Men to do their "share" of the housework. If my husband does anything he is "helping me out" He was supposed to get up at 5 am to help me clean. I sat here with the Alarm going off for 15 mins. And he is sound asleep. I am going to start my cleaning by vacuuming the master bedroom. Wish me luck. Sent from my MB855 using proboards The thing I don't understand is why it is so common for a woman who has dated the guy for a long time and lived with the guy to end up in this position. Isn't weeding out the housework parasites part of the point of dating forever and shacking up before getting married?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 25, 2013 12:07:06 GMT -5
Well, I do agree with the message that women are often their own worst enimies in the workplace. That they often sabatoge themselves, and it's not always the mean old women hating bosses. Of course - women are to blame for it all. No, career minded women just need to get smart and do what men have been doing for ages. Find a supportive guy who will take over the lion's share of the housework and child rearing. Give up on looking for the white knight.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 25, 2013 12:08:27 GMT -5
I guess I didn't read the whole article - I didn't actually see what a "lean in circle" was. Do I need to read the book to know what we are talking about more specifically?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 25, 2013 12:21:10 GMT -5
Again, says the person who ended up in the EXACT SAME SITUATION herself. Haven't you said that your husband "became a parasite" for several years before you had kids? How is it so difficult to understand how something that happened to you could happen to others?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 25, 2013 12:23:19 GMT -5
I did read the article, and she did make a good point. Pregnancy is what it is. No matter how supportive a husband is, it is the woman's body that has to go through the pregnancy, and a high powered job and any form of sickness just don't mix.
With me, I worked hard on my education career while I was single, scored a family friendly job right before getting married and had 3 kids in 5 years. Had I not saved a ton of money while I was single and chosen to stay in a LCOL area, we wouldn't have been able to pull off having DH at home and me working a not-so-high-powered job. And now that we're done with kids, I'm ready to take on that high powered job.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 12:24:16 GMT -5
I skimmed and the part that turned me off was mandatory attendance and giving up 2 hours twice a week.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 25, 2013 12:31:15 GMT -5
No, career minded women just need to get smart and do what men have been doing for ages. Find a supportive guy who will take over the lion's share of the housework and child rearing. Give up on looking for the white knight. I really don't care what life a woman set-ups for herself - or how much she devotes to a career, or her family, or who she decides to juggle that. As long as inputs to outputs is equitable. But study after study finds that it's not. The same behaviors are "leadership potential" for men and "bitchy" for women. The exact same resume with a man's name is evaluated as more capable and deserving of a higher initial salary offer. These are the issues that need to be addressed. What do you mean by inputs to outputs is equitable?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 25, 2013 12:59:56 GMT -5
I really don't care what life a woman set-ups for herself - or how much she devotes to a career, or her family, or who she decides to juggle that. As long as inputs to outputs is equitable. But study after study finds that it's not. The same behaviors are "leadership potential" for men and "bitchy" for women. The exact same resume with a man's name is evaluated as more capable and deserving of a higher initial salary offer. These are the issues that need to be addressed. What do you mean by inputs to outputs is equitable? This is one reason why women mentoring other women is so vital. What works for men doesn't work for women. What works for a minority won't work for a white male. Since different groups are percieved differently they need to act differently to get ahead.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 25, 2013 13:05:28 GMT -5
I always see this, but I know a whole bunch (dozens) of men who are doing well in their career, who don't give a shit if they are perceived as assholes. The difference between men and women aren't that men are considered competent and women are considered bitchy. It is that when some low level employee calls an executive man an asshole, the man doesn't think twice about. But when some low level employee calls an executive woman a bitch, the woman gets all worked up and then writes a book about unfair it is that she was called a name. The women I know who are doing well don't give a shit either. They just get the job done. If someone doesn't like them, so what.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Feb 25, 2013 14:11:02 GMT -5
They obviously have outside support and I have to question how much time (quality or otherwise) she is able to give to there children. While it might be enough for her, it would not be enough for me. One of the things while i was pregnant with DD that I really looked at was my PPD with DS and how I would "combat" it this time around. For me, I realized the more i tried to do it "all*" and the more I failed, the more down on myself I got and it spiraled. This time, I promised myself (especially with my DH having back surgery shortly after DD's birth) that I would keep in mind my limitations. Mine are different than someone elses. Frankly, I'm ok coasting in my career right now. I'm ok putting my goals on hold for now because it isn't healthy for me or my family. Even when it appears someone has it "all", the appearance probably isn't the reality and they are missing something.
I think her "lean in" idea is fine for mentoring, but it wouldn't be a priority for me. When I'm ready to move up in my career again, I can and I will. Everyone handles stress and children differently and I don't need to be held to a groups standard for my career. I just need to do what works for myself and my family.
-*my "all" is different than a lot of people. My husband is a devoted SAHD who does most of the laundry, all of the cleaning, a lot of the yard works and is ok with just sort of making do for meals a couple times a week. But with 10 acres of land and now 2 kids, in the summer it can be a full time job staying on top of things. Even in the winter, we are staring down a snowstorm after an ice storm last week and I had to spend part of the weekend familarizing myself with the tractor so I can plow the driveway (this is typically DH's job, but he had back surgery).
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 25, 2013 14:29:58 GMT -5
I always see this, but I know a whole bunch (dozens) of men who are doing well in their career, who don't give a shit if they are perceived as assholes. The difference between men and women aren't that men are considered competent and women are considered bitchy. It is that when some low level employee calls an executive man an asshole, the man doesn't think twice about. But when some low level employee calls an executive woman a bitch, the woman gets all worked up and then writes a book about unfair it is that she was called a name. The women I know who are doing well don't give a shit either. They just get the job done. If someone doesn't like them, so what. I don't know if it's so much whether women care if they are perceived as bitchy, but that 'bitchy women' are considered negatives in the workplace, while asshole men aren't. Back at my last job when I worked for the Giant Dick, he made it clear he didn't like women in roles other than admin/secretarial functions. There were three of us women managers and he couldn't stand us in those roles and constantly undermined us. Once I got onto an employee for failing to do something and called him on it in a meeting. The Giant Dick got onto me, saying I "needed to learn how to be nice." Right there in the meeting in front of my co-workers. Not once - never ever - did the Giant Dick tell a male manager in my presence that he needed to be 'nice.' And he himself (the Giant Dick) was one of those screaming tyrant type bosses who routinely had people either quit or cry or both at the same time. There was no question that HE needed to be 'nice.' Just me - the female. I didn't - and don't - care if people think I'm a bitch. I am a bitch sometimes. But some workplaces won't tolerate a woman doing what men do - swearing, being assertive, disciplining an employee - instead women are supposed to be sweet, polite, soft spoken and co-operative with the males they work with. I'm pleased to say the Giant Dick was rare, and his attitude toward women is less common these days (and yes, he did get fired, finally, for being a Giant Dick) but it is still out there, just in a more subtle form.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 25, 2013 14:31:46 GMT -5
I agree that her demand for us to "lean-in" does not take into account that we might just plain not want to. It might be great advice for someone who doesn't want more time with their kids, or doesn't have kids - but do they really need to be told that they shouldn't turn down projects that will be promotional opportuntties? I knew how to work harder and that big projects brought big rewards. My problem is now that I'm tired, and I want to go home and eat popcorn with my kids. How does taking a job where I travel 80% of the time make my life better? It would just make me more career oriented, not happier.
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