Georgia declares "war" on its poorest...

[The Captain]

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/12/georgia_s_war_against_the_poor_the_southern_state_is_emptying_its_welfare.single.html

Here is a state that does not provide benefits if someone is capable of working. Several hard-luck stories were brought up in the article. None of which (to be honest) elicited much sympathy except for the lady who had to drop out of ultra-sound school. Of course in that case the baby-daddy skipped town when the going got tough so you have to wonder how well she knew the guy before having a kid with him...

You read about people having to make hard choices but nowhere in the article was there talk of people starving in the streets (the typical argument for keeping a basic safety net in place). While there is an acknowledgement that private charity was stretched thin, it seems to be covering the gap (something people say would not happen when arguing for uncle sugar to provide).

Also, while I don't believe in treating people cruelly, I have to take exception to the statement below:

Smith recalls, "Some of the stuff that was said to individuals was pretty awful—'If you can't find a job, we'll have you shoveling shit at the dog pound.' "[\quote]

What is so aweful about doing honest work for benefits? Other statements like taking kids away, yea not right, but the above just rubs me as people being too "good" to get their hands dirty.

The other examples were pretty much pathetic such as the "young grandmother" supporting 15 people? WTF!!! Sounds like one dysfunctional generation breeding another.

As far as the Illinois example, I live in this state and see how much welfare we hand out. As much as you give there will always be some who say it is not enough.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Dec 28, 2012 14:26:29 GMT -5 The Captain said:

As much as you give there will always be some who say it is not enough.

...agreed...

[Angel!]

Dec 28, 2012 14:26:29 GMT -5 The Captain said:

You read about people having to make hard choices but nowhere in the article was there talk of people starving in the streets (the typical argument for keeping a basic safety net in place).

That is because these people still get food stamps, so of course no one is starving in the streets. All this article is about is cash assistance - TANF.

The number of people on TANF should be low & it should only be for extreme cases. However, I dislike the way Georgia is accomplishing that goal. There has to be better ways to do this.

[resolution]

I dislike the way that Georgia is taking credit for private charity spending and claiming that money as state spending to get matching funds from the feds to divert to other programs. If they aren't going to spend their TANF money on the poor then I don't think they should be claiming it from the feds.

[Angel!]

Good point.

[The Captain]

Dec 28, 2012 14:50:01 GMT -5 resolution said:

I dislike the way that Georgia is taking credit for private charity spending and claiming that money as state spending to get matching funds from the feds to divert to other programs. If they aren't going to spend their TANF money on the poor then I don't think they should be claiming it from the feds.

Good catch Kari, I missed that on the first read.

[The Captain]

Dec 28, 2012 15:21:13 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Dec 28, 2012 14:26:29 GMT -5 The Captain said:

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/12/georgia_s_war_against_the_poor_the_southern_state_is_emptying_its_welfare.single.html

Here is a state that does not provide benefits if someone is capable of working. Several hard-luck stories were brought up in the article. None of which (to be honest) elicited much sympathy except for the lady who had to drop out of ultra-sound school. Of course in that case the baby-daddy skipped town when the going got tough so you have to wonder how well she knew the guy before having a kid with him...

So that negates any need for any empathy - your supposed insight into her lack of sexual morals?

How does my assessment of her ability to judge his character (which is obviously flawed) in any way relate to your intrepolation of a judgement on her sexual morals?

[Angel!]

Obviously all pregnancies are planned, accidents never happen, and men never change after a baby comes along (or after finding out their kid is very sick). So clearly she should have had the foresight to see that he would leave her & that her kid would have a chronic condition.

No sympathy for her.

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2012 15:33:37 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Dec 28, 2012 15:29:26 GMT -5 The Captain said:

How does my assessment of her ability to judge his character (which is obviously flawed) in any way relate to your intrepolation of a judgement on her sexual morals?

you said - that case you had some sympathy for but ended with:

Of course in that case the baby-daddy skipped town when the going got tough so you have to wonder how well she knew the guy before having a kid with him...

Why? You had sympathy - but then this zinger of which you know very little about but you must stick that in there in a discussion of the sympathy level of her case.

Why?

I think you are mis-parsing (is that a word?) the sentence that Captain wrote...

Dec 28, 2012 14:26:29 GMT -5 The Captain said:

None of which (to be honest) elicited much sympathy except for the lady who had to drop out of ultra-sound school. Of course in that case the baby-daddy skipped town when the going got tough so you have to wonder how well she knew the guy before having a kid with him...

I read that as that she did not have much sympathy for the people in the story EXCEPT for the lady who had to drop out of school...

[formerroomate99]

I find it ironic that not giving people money is considered 'declaring war'. To me, declaring war implies some agressive action.

[formerroomate99]

Of course in that case the baby-daddy skipped town when the going got tough so you have to wonder how well she knew the guy before having a kid with him...



Why? You had sympathy - but then this zinger of which you know very little about but you must stick that in there in a discussion of the sympathy level of her case.

Why?

Because having a child you can't support on your own with a man who hasn't made a committment to you is a dumb idea? If she had just waited until she was done with school, being abandoned by Mr Scumbag wouldn't have been so disastrous. And by then, she might have known that he was a scumbag. Though the one everyone should be angry at is Mr Scumbag, and the politicians who have let guys like this off the hook. There needs to be a national database so that child support is automatically taken out of paychecks like taxes.

[zibazinski]

But then they whine they don't know who baby daddy is. A normal person would be shamed to say things like that but then a normal person wouldn't get on the public tit.

[Deleted]

One thing that kept running through my head during all the "Christmas cheer for the poor" stories in the news in the last few weeks was how few Dads were around. The one I remember most was a woman with some social service job, student loan debt, and 5 kids. No mention of a man. Why in the heck did she have 5 kids? I mean, I like babies, too, but 5 of them would have been more than I was willing to support so I would never have had that many, even wth a better job and zero student loan debt.

I think that every articel on p-o-o-r single mothers should acknowledge that there was a man involved and mengtion what happened to him. Is she a widow? Was it a one-nght stand? Divorce from a deadbeat? And if the guys can possibly be tracked down, interview them and ask if they know their kids are getting charity and what they're doing to support their spawn. Name them and shame them.

[NastyWoman]

Dec 28, 2012 14:50:01 GMT -5 resolution said:

I dislike the way that Georgia is taking credit for private charity spending and claiming that money as state spending to get matching funds from the feds to divert to other programs. If they aren't going to spend their TANF money on the poor then I don't think they should be claiming it from the feds.

Why should I pay fed taxes for states like Georgia to milk the system? Can you spell state welfare? For either that is what you should call what Georgia is doing, or alternately we need to call it defrauding the feds, i.e. us, the taxpayers

[zibazinski]

Maybe you'd think twice about sleeping with a deadbeat if the consequences were that YOU would be responsible, not the govt, for anything that happened afterwards. No one forces you to have a baby that you can't support.

[milee]

Dec 28, 2012 22:20:33 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Dec 28, 2012 20:49:42 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

One thing that kept running through my head during all the "Christmas cheer for the poor" stories in the news in the last few weeks was how few Dads were around. The one I remember most was a woman with some social service job, student loan debt, and 5 kids. No mention of a man. Why in the heck did she have 5 kids? I mean, I like babies, too, but 5 of them would have been more than I was willing to support so I would never have had that many, even wth a better job and zero student loan debt.

I think that every articel on p-o-o-r single mothers should acknowledge that there was a man involved and mengtion what happened to him. Is she a widow? Was it a one-nght stand? Divorce from a deadbeat? And if the guys can possibly be tracked down, interview them and ask if they know their kids are getting charity and what they're doing to support their spawn. Name them and shame them.

I'm torn on that. Yes there is a father equally responsible but when do people get to call it done? If a guys a loser and has nothing to offer as a father, when do you get to move on? Why does anyone have to satisfy people's curiosity on something that is the painful past for them?

How is it relevant if it was a one night stand or a widow.....an intended or accidental pregnancy? Unless you use that to decide what kind of person they are, how much sympathy they re entitled to-and if they are "deserving" of assistance or not?

I don't think that the situation or history of the father should have much bearing on how the current aid works. Bottom line - if the kids are hungry, let's feed them regardless of what choices of the parents put them in the situation.

IMHO, however, for newspaper articles that are attempting to inform people on a situation it is appropriate to include more history. In fact, it is either irresponsible or downright manipulative to exclude important facts in such an article.

It's also important to understand the cause of the need for social, taxation and governmental purposes. Why are these people hungry? Is the food too expensive? Are there too few jobs? Are people having kids because birth control isn't available? Are too many families being raised by single mothers because the government creates financial incentives for people to not be married? It's good to know the cause so we can try to address some of the root causes. Doesn't make much sense to spend a lot of tax money on providing welfare if other government action is what's creating the need for welfare in the first place.

You can't propose solutions if you don't understand the cause of the problem.

[Deleted]

I don't think that was the type of article bing discussed. During December we always have 'articles' which focus each day on a specific 'needy' family in order to drum up donations for toys, etc....

[alabamagal]

Dec 29, 2012 8:44:29 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Maybe you'd think twice about sleeping with a deadbeat if the consequences were that YOU would be responsible, not the govt, for anything that happened afterwards. No one forces you to have a baby that you can't support.

Yes! And it's not like I lack sympathy for those in bad situations, but there are so many that have made poor decisions (and it generally involves having kids out of wedlock). And if you don't live with the baby-daddy you get more money from the government.

I live in Georgia, in the poorest metropolitan area in the state. I have never had to apply for TANF, so I can't say firsthand. But there are plenty of other programs out there to help people in need. There are plenty of people getting food stamps. There are plenty of housing assistance places. There are plenty of charities to help, temporary housing, etc. And we have a huge technical school where you can get GED (if you drop out of our horrible school system), and take classes for FREE under Georgia HOPE grants. The tech school even has daycare. There are not thousands starving in our area.

And a couple weeks ago there was an article in the paper saying our city had the highest charity giving rate per capita in the state and near highest in the nation - of course that may be because we have the lowest income.....

[milee]

Dec 29, 2012 9:10:16 GMT -5 oped said:

I don't think that was the type of article bing discussed. During December we always have 'articles' which focus each day on a specific 'needy' family in order to drum up donations for toys, etc....

Our local newspaper does this 2-3 times a week between Thanksgiving and Christmas to highlight people that have been helped by their charity initiative. While it's a good idea to make the stories personal, sometimes it appears they might want to do a better job choosing the stories, IMHO. Some are very sympathetic and some just highlight how a series of bad choices put people in a bad situation.

[Deleted]

That is generally how ours read as well. I try to focus on the kids involved...

[milee]

Dec 29, 2012 9:23:40 GMT -5 oped said:

That is generally how ours read as well. I try to focus on the kids involved...

Me, too. I'm always OK with the idea of feeding and sheltering the kids. No questions.

It gets a litte less obvious if some of the adults should continue to receive handouts.

As for the reasons, though, I still think it makes a lot of sense to know why the people are in that situation. Sometimes after reading stories, I will donate to the food bank, but sometimes after reading stories, I donate instead to Planned Parenthood or job training programs. If I were a guy, I'd start volunteering for Big Brother type programs since a common theme around here seems to be lack of good male role models.

[grits]

The WPA and CCC gave assistance to people but they had to do something in return to get it. The nation benefited from it too. Since the economy is in the , bring back those programs to help out the poor, and the country. Also, you have to be drug tested to get assistance. No more help for crackheads.

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2012 22:20:33 GMT -5 @tbird said:

How is it relevant if it was a one night stand or a widow.....an intended or accidental pregnancy? Unless you use that to decide what kind of person they are, how much sympathy they re entitled to-and if they are "deserving" of assistance or not?

It's more of a consciousness-raising thing. I am tired of focusing only on the mother and her struggles. Every one of those kids has a biological father and good journalism should explain why they're not taking responsibility for their kids. If the answer is "she reproduced with deadbeats and lost touch with them", that's a viable answer, but at least it drives home the point that reproducing with deadbeats maybe isn't a good idea.

You can put two different spins on this type of story. One is, "Jane Smith, who has had 3 children by 3 different fathers whose whereabouts are unknown, or Sally Jones, whose husband died with no life insurance and no savings, was unable to provide for her kids and the needs are being filled by charitable people and government programs." The other is, "Jane Smith or Sally Jones, who is unable to provide for her kids and they're being taken care of by charitable people and government programs."

I prefer the first. Tell the whole story and remind people that some poverty can be prevented by better decision making. Not all of it- I'm not that heartless or unrealistic- but some of it.

[zibazinski]

If you actually have a husband you can get some survivor benefits if he worked.

[zibazinski]

But I very firmly believe if the govt tit wasn't there, there'd be fewer children born into situations where they shouldn't have been. Now the middle class is figuring out they can get free shit if they don't marry. Where and when does the tit end and personal responsibility start? Never?

[Deleted]

Yeah, that has ways been the case historically, right? Eye roll...

[whoami]

Also, while I don't believe in treating people cruelly, I have to take exception to the statement below:

Smith recalls, "Some of the stuff that was said to individuals was pretty awful—'If you can't find a job, we'll have you shoveling shit at the dog pound.' "

_________________________________________________________

I've shoveled shit at the animal shelter as a volunteer. No one on the dole at this house.

[zibazinski]

Shovel shit, pick up trash, anything but being able to sit on their asses all day long and watch tv.

[southernrus]

I live in GA. And all of those 7% must live in my neighborhood. I promise you, poor people are not doing so bad here. Sure, there is a difference between state and fed help, and if state drops them, fed will pick up. It seems like every other person is on food stamps. Children are on PeachCare, which has excellent benefits, a lot better than those I get at work. And then there is that never-ending PEL grant scam. Go to local access community college, sign up for classes, withdraw right after you were counted "in" (or just don't show up and get an F). Rinse and repeat semester after semester.

I feel proud of every young person working at McDonalds or coming to my door and asking if I need my yard mowed.

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2012 14:42:10 GMT -5 southernrus said:

I live in GA. And all of those 7% must live in my neighborhood. I promise you, poor people are not doing so bad here. Sure, there is a difference between state and fed help, and if state drops them, fed will pick up. It seems like every other person is on food stamps. Children are on PeachCare, which has excellent benefits, a lot better than those I get at work. And then there is that never-ending PEL grant scam. Go to local access community college, sign up for classes, withdraw right after you were counted "in" (or just don't show up and get an F). Rinse and repeat semester after semester.

I feel proud of every young person working at McDonalds or coming to my door and asking if I need my yard mowed.

you do realize that PELL grant money goes straight to the school to pay for costs and the student only gets a refund if there is money left over after it's paid for tuition and fees, right?