So what should the Mental Health laws be?

[973beachbum]

I tried to find a particlular article about a mentally unstable elderly man who murdered his 88 yr old neighbor as well as stabbing others although I don't think they died. I couldn't find the original articles but this is the story as I remember it.

The man was totally bonkers. he has lined his entire apartment with tin foil, not joking either, he made repeated threats to his neighbor. He had a known history of being unstable and violent, althogh never seriously injuring anyone. They lived less than a mile from a hospital and people had called the police to say they were afraid he would kill someone. The woman who was murdered went so far as to live with her daughter for a few weeks. She went back for some things and he stabbed her to death.

The mental health people had visited him multiple times and they never saw enough to be able to commit him. He mostly would just say he didn't want to talk with them and slam his tin foil lined door on them.

The prosecuters did something I have never seen them do before after he was in custody. they immediately declared him unfit to stand trial. I can't imagine how C rack ers he had to be for them to just throw up their hands and not try him.

He did get committed for basically the rest of his life but only after he had stabbed his neighbor to death.

[hoops902]

Dec 17, 2012 13:42:19 GMT -5 tloonya said:

Commiting people will solve nothing.
It will take one escape from facility and we are back to square 1.

It doesn't even take an escape. What are we going to do? Lock up the millions of people with mental health issues against their will? If you can pinpoint who's going to go on a shooting rampage, then have at it. But after the shooting it's always "oh yeah, he was a loner, etc". But there are millions of others just like that person who are just introverts. It's always easy to pick apart the "warning signs" after you know someone's done something. The reality is that those same warning signs could be applied to millions, 99.9% of whom will never harm anyone.

[hoops902]

::There is a huge problem with mental illness and crime in this country beyond the horrific things we see like last week. Our jails and prisons are grappling with what to do with these people. I wrote a story about this problem last year. Some stats I used:::

More representative stats though would be what % of people with mental health problems end up in jail. Even if 100% of people in jail have a mental health problem, if they represent only 1% of all people with mental health issues, then it doesn't do much for getting us to a solution. It only tells us that if you don't have a mental health issue you're not going to jail.

[thyme4change]

There are crazy people everywhere but it seems like it is only the US that continues to deal with this horrific events. Is there something in our culture? Something in the way we are raising our children?

I'm sorry Miss Tequila - but I think you are sadly misinformed. Mass shootings and murders go back way before "our time", and other countries deal with mass murder also. I'm sure you don't spend your evenings debating the mental status of people who went on rapages during the 30's, or in Uganda - and I'm sure the news hasn't covered it. But the reality is, these problems aren't new and they are not localized to the USA. I really wish you would do a little research before you blanket the USA with unique problems. It weakens your argument and makes you sound less credible.

[midjd]

I am obviously not liberal in my views and have no problem shattering someone's rights if it saves innocent people, but I don't believe the majority of our country agrees with me (or they would have voted with me last time!lol).

Like Hoops said, it's all but impossible to pinpoint who would do something like this until it's too late. The same red flags that were probably present in the CT case could exist for any number of people who will never go on to harm anyone.

My MIL works in a mental institution, and has since the late 1970s. To say the treatment of the mentally ill has changed a bit since then is the understatement of the year. But I don't know that all these changes are necessarily bad. The movies One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and Girl Interrupted are pretty accurate representations... at that time, you could be committed against your will for being gay, autistic, promiscuous, or simply "different."

I don't want us to go back to those times, but I do think there should be procedures in place so that people can report those about whom they're concerned and be certain those people can get the help they need.

[tloonya]

Dec 17, 2012 13:50:32 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

There are crazy people everywhere but it seems like it is only the US that continues to deal with this horrific events. Is there something in our culture? Something in the way we are raising our children?

I'm sorry Miss Tequila - but I think you are sadly misinformed. Mass shootings and murders go back way before "our time", and other countries deal with mass murder also. I'm sure you don't spend your evenings debating the mental status of people who went on rapages during the 30's, or in Uganda - and I'm sure the news hasn't covered it. But the reality is, these problems aren't new and they are not localized to the USA. I really wish you would do a little research before you blanket the USA with unique problems. It weakens your argument and makes you sound less credible.

thyme!
I am sure Tequila didn't mean insult on USA.
I am very proud US citizen by naturalization, and I am hearing 'only in USA' from my customers and 'shame on USA' and its for the first time I am not yealling at them nor throwing them out of my store! Because I feel...it is a shame...and it IS seems like its only here.
... little too often nowadays.
Can you tell since you had researched a lot - what other country has all of these 'happennings' happening as often as we do.
Please enlighten us all.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 13:50:32 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

There are crazy people everywhere but it seems like it is only the US that continues to deal with this horrific events. Is there something in our culture? Something in the way we are raising our children?

I'm sorry Miss Tequila - but I think you are sadly misinformed. Mass shootings and murders go back way before "our time", and other countries deal with mass murder also. I'm sure you don't spend your evenings debating the mental status of people who went on rapages during the 30's, or in Uganda - and I'm sure the news hasn't covered it. But the reality is, these problems aren't new and they are not localized to the USA. I really wish you would do a little research before you blanket the USA with unique problems. It weakens your argument and makes you sound less credible.

Weakens my argument? Geesh, I'm posting my thoughts not writing a thesis.

And if these occur all over the world in teh same proportion that they happen in the US, then you answered the question. Everyone rails against the US healthcare system but if we are not unique in dealing with this, then it isn't our health care system that is the issue

[The Captain]

Dec 17, 2012 13:55:04 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Dec 17, 2012 13:09:40 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Good question...

now.msn.com/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-says-mom-of-mentally-ill-son?

Problem is, even when the parent is able to admit their child is a sociopath they don't believe their kid should be locked up.

And the parent who is able to admit that horrible truth is a rare one.

The kid in that article shows no sign of sociopathy. He remains undiagnosed.

Wrong - the kid displays several signs of sociopathy, or at least a behaviour disorder very similar:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathy

Agreed he is undiagnosed and I'm not a doctor, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 13:59:34 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Dec 17, 2012 13:23:09 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I agree. But over the last two days I have seen FB post after FB post blaming our mental health laws for this tragedy. So I am really interested in what they should be. I am obviously not liberal in my views and have no problem shattering someone's rights if it saves innocent people, but I don't believe the majority of our country agrees with me (or they would have voted with me last time!lol).

I honestly do not know what we can do as a country to prevent this. How do we intitutionalize people who haven't actually committed a crime?

well now - are you talking about shattering the rights a the would-be shooter? Or shattering the rights of 10,000 people who may have the same profile but would never snap?

That was my point...all of the blame on our mental health system but no answers as to what is going wrong. What can we change to stop this? Obviously locking up everyone that could potentially snap is not the answer. What is?

[thyme4change]

Can you tell since you had researched a lot - what other country has all of these 'happennings'

In 2010 there was a school shooting in Ontario.
In 2009 there was a school shooting in Germany - 16 dead.
In 2008 there was a school shooting in Finland - 10 dead.
In 2011 there was a school shooting in Brazil - 13 dead.

To name a few. The list goes on.

It might "seem" that the news only applies to us. But if you can prove it, I will listen.

[thyme4change]

Weakens my argument? Geesh, I'm posting my thoughts not writing a thesis.

Unfortunately, you aren't posting opinions - you are making up facts. You are saying that we never had this kind of violence before. Not true. You are saying that this doesn't happen outside the USA. Not true.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 14:06:48 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Weakens my argument? Geesh, I'm posting my thoughts not writing a thesis.

Unfortunately, you aren't posting opinions - you are making up facts. You are saying that we never had this kind of violence before. Not true. You are saying that this doesn't happen outside the USA. Not true.

OK...and these are countries that have nationalized health care, correct? If that is the case, why is there so much blame here on the Mental Health services? It sounds like the US mental health services is not to blame?

[thyme4change]

There is blame on a lot of things here. Everyone is searching to make sense of something that will never make any sense. Someone must be blamed. This is classic grief. You can't just say "Oh well, shit happens" because people will think you are ridiculous. But, unfortunately, shit happens. We can't prevent it. We can't prevent all auto-accident deaths. We can't detect every heart defect. We can't determine who is going to snap. People will always die. It will always be sad. There will always be victims. It will alway be senseless and horrible and totally worthless. It will always be devastating. Both atheists and faithful people can't just shrug it off. They will always search for answers, and want to point fingers, and lay blame and improve something so it won't happen again. But it will.

[973beachbum]

Dec 17, 2012 14:10:11 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 17, 2012 14:06:48 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Unfortunately, you aren't posting opinions - you are making up facts. You are saying that we never had this kind of violence before. Not true. You are saying that this doesn't happen outside the USA. Not true.

OK...and these are countries that have nationalized health care, correct? If that is the case, why is there so much blame here on the Mental Health services? It sounds like the US mental health services is not to blame?

Well to start with our mental healh system is pretty broken but in this case it seems to be the only place people can vent their anger towards. The only other place would be at the mom who had all these weapons in her home knowing her son was so unstable, if she did. Most people won't say anything bad about her though because she also died.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 14:06:48 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Weakens my argument? Geesh, I'm posting my thoughts not writing a thesis.

Unfortunately, you aren't posting opinions - you are making up facts. You are saying that we never had this kind of violence before. Not true. You are saying that this doesn't happen outside the USA. Not true.

To clarify, I did not state a fact...I said "it seems that the US".....which is clearly my opinion not a fact. Whether i was correct in my thoughts, I never claimed to have factual evidence.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 14:15:13 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Dec 17, 2012 14:10:11 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

OK...and these are countries that have nationalized health care, correct? If that is the case, why is there so much blame here on the Mental Health services? It sounds like the US mental health services is not to blame?

Well to start with our mental healh system is pretty broken but in this case it seems to be the only place people can vent their anger towards. The only other place would be at the mom who had all these weapons in her home knowing her son was so unstable, if she did. Most people won't say anything bad about her though because she also died.

If she was at fault then I see nothing wrong with blaming her. If for no other reason so that other parents of kids like hers can learn from her mistake.

[973beachbum]

Dec 17, 2012 14:15:41 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 17, 2012 14:06:48 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Unfortunately, you aren't posting opinions - you are making up facts. You are saying that we never had this kind of violence before. Not true. You are saying that this doesn't happen outside the USA. Not true.

To clarify, I did not state a fact...I said "it seems that the US".....which is clearly my opinion not a fact. Whether i was correct in my thoughts, I never claimed to have factual evidence.

Oh come one! We all know everything posted on the internet is 100% factually correct.

[thyme4change]

Well - I'm calling you out, because the more people state that something is a certain way, the more people believe it. I'm saying that the facts don't really support your feelings that things happen only in the place where you live (and the news feed you receive.)

As always, trying to correct someone only results in getting your head bit off, even if the person says "Well, I didn't even really state it was true - so it is okay that I go around saying it." Miss T - you are better than this.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 14:16:51 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Dec 17, 2012 14:15:41 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

To clarify, I did not state a fact...I said "it seems that the US".....which is clearly my opinion not a fact. Whether i was correct in my thoughts, I never claimed to have factual evidence.

Oh come one! We all know everything posted on the internet is 100% factually correct.

LOL! I had to go back and re-read what I said because I didn't know how I phrased it...otherwise I would have said it the first time around. I know shit happens all over the world but it seems to me that we have more than our share of these craizes...(again, SEEMS TO ME!)....but I also didn't sit here and extropolate over the populations

[sheilaincali]

I think there needs to be a priority shift. People will say we need better access to mental health services for those that need it but people aren't willing to fund that sort of thing. People will say that we need metal detectors in schools or a security guard but they will vote down any referendum that requests additional school funding. They will say you can't limit a citizen's access to assault rifles because it's unconstitutional. People will say whatever they think they should say in the wake of this tragedy but very few will ever actually get off their butts and try to do something or fight for their convictions.

We have a homeless problem in which many of the homeless have a mental illness. Where are they supposed to go to get treatment and off the streets? Hell when I lived in Anchorage they would literally round up all the homeless people on a bus and drive them out of town and drop them off so the tourists wouldn't have to see homeless people while on vacation. In my town the homeless shelter has 12 beds (it's at the Salvation Army) for men only and they are only open from November until March. After that they close down and send them back out on to the streets.

How many of these kids like the son in the article mentioned above are going to be able to become productive members of society without getting the help they need? That woman mentioned being able to drive her kid to the hospital to basically be committed because she had insurance and could thus afford it. What was going to be her solution had she not had insurance?

I get so frustrated listening to the talking heads pointing fingers and not accomplishing anything at all.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 14:18:46 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Well - I'm calling you out, because the more people state that something is a certain way, the more people believe it. I'm saying that the facts don't really support your feelings that things happen only in the place where you live (and the news feed you receive.)

As always, trying to correct someone only results in getting your head bit off, even if the person says "Well, I didn't even really state it was true - so it is okay that I go around saying it." Miss T - you are better than this.

LOL..you go right ahead and call me out...I don't much care

On the plus side, someone like you will do the research for me jsut to prove me wrong...so I still win

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 17, 2012 14:19:59 GMT -5 sheilaincali said:

I think there needs to be a priority shift. People will say we need better access to mental health services for those that need it but people aren't willing to fund that sort of thing. People will say that we need metal detectors in schools or a security guard but they will vote down any referendum that requests additional school funding. They will say you can't limit a citizen's access to assault rifles because it's unconstitutional. People will say whatever they think they should say in the wake of this tragedy but very few will ever actually get off their butts and try to do something or fight for their convictions.

We have a homeless problem in which many of the homeless have a mental illness. Where are they supposed to go to get treatment and off the streets? Hell when I lived in Anchorage they would literally round up all the homeless people on a bus and drive them out of town and drop them off so the tourists wouldn't have to see homeless people while on vacation. In my town the homeless shelter has 12 beds (it's at the Salvation Army) for men only and they are only open from November until March. After that they close down and send them back out on to the streets.

How many of these kids like the son in the article mentioned above are going to be able to become productive members of society without getting the help they need? That woman mentioned being able to drive her kid to the hospital to basically be committed because she had insurance and could thus afford it. What was going to be her solution had she not had insurance?

I get so frustrated listening to the talking heads pointing fingers and not accomplishing anything at all.

is it a funding issue, though? Disclaimer so thyme doesn't "call me out" again...I have done no research on this and am just throwing out ideas

Based on what Thyme posted countries that have national health care have the same issues....if it was lack of access to health care, then wouldn't those countries be immune?

[thyme4change]

We have a homeless problem in which many of the homeless have a mental illness.

This is absolutely true - but are they a main source of violent or even victim crime? Here they get locked up for trespassing and urinating in public, but they aren't the ones carjacking people or doing home invasions or anything.

I would love to find the solution for everyone that can't face reality competently with their brains wired the way they are. But, is our priority to find solutions to people who snap and shoot dozens (and the 10,000 that don't snap, but could) or to resolve the issues that turn a person homeless? There are so many people out there that need help. Are we going to prioritize?

[973beachbum]

I don't know where you got your stats Thyme but according to the American Bar Assoc who got it's stats from places like the CDC we do have a much higher rate of gun violence.


The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.
Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997;46:101-105.

The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Rates of homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death among children: 26 industrialized countries.
MMWR. 1997;46:101-105.

[kgb18]

Funding is an issue in Pennsylvania. Most of the state hospitals for the mentally ill have been closed because of lack of funding.

[thyme4change]

See - facts.

[justme]

Dec 17, 2012 14:25:18 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I don't know where you got your stats Thyme but according to the American Bar Assoc who got it's stats from places like the CDC we do have a much higher rate of gun violence.


The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.
Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997;46:101-105.

The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Rates of homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death among children: 26 industrialized countries.
MMWR. 1997;46:101-105.

There's a difference between gun violence and mass murders, and those stats take in all forms of it. "Regular" murders from car jackings/drug deal gone bad/robbery probably aren't committed as often by those with mental illness, but it seems that a lot of these mass shoot-em-up murders are by people that are mentally ill. (At least that's what I always hear in the news, but that's not always correct!) I wonder if there's stats out there on mass-shoot-em-up murders by country.

[kgb18]

"5 Sensible Steps We Can Take to Prevent Gun Massacres"

thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/17/1342971/5-sensible-steps-we-can-take-to-avert-gun-massacres/

[thyme4change]

"Regular" murders from car jackings/drug deal gone bad/robbery probably aren't committed as often by those with mental illness

I think most gun violence, and especially gun violence against kids probably happens in their own house by some known source. I recall reading that once - but I am having trouble doing much gun violence research due to our firewall.

[ihearyou2]

I find this whole mental health conversation a red herring. There are some obvious examples of people who are violently explosive but there are plenty others who you just call "off". We all have that Uncle. It seems like after these episodes happen that we have to have a reason and it becomes this obvious case with each of these individuals afterwards that they had all the signs of being one of those obvious lunatics. Prior to that the child is brilliant but lacking social skills, harmless but odd, now they are clearly and have always been a menace to society. It is humanities perverse need to explain that which can not be explained.

BTW for those talking about how this stuff never happened, the worse attack on a school in America's history happened in the 1920s. I think the frequency of these occurrences has to be directly connected to availability of sophisticated weaponry to the average citizen but that's another conversation.