the "nones" as a voting bloc

[Virgil Showlion]

That, for me, comes from my humanity, not a list of rules.

You have an internal list of rules the same as anybody else, they've just never been codified. You certainly weren't born with them. You've previously stated that they're unremarkable and have no applicability beyond you personally.

And how many hands does to take to count all the Christian colleagues and acquaintances that actually adhere to the full set of humanitarian laws codified in Christian doctrine at all times?

Several, but that would be to enumerate the number of Christians I know who faithfully attempt to updhold all the laws and have not failed to do so while in my company.

Do you have a link? My understanding is that Quebec is the least religious province, followed by the Yukon, followed by BC.

There's the StatsCan link in Reply #24, showing a 16% "no religious affiliation" in Ontario versus 5% in Quebec province.

Your article refers to the same census data, and the chart is for "attends weekly religious services". Beyond that, it depends on how you define "religious", which is an argument I've already had with Robert.

[weltschmerz]

Your article refers to the same census data, and the chart is for "attends weekly religious services". Beyond that, it depends on how you define "religious", which is an argument I've already had with Robert
----------------
Yes, Virgil. Like I said, they self-identify as Catholic, because they were baptized as such. However, after the Quiet Revolution, they stopped believing and stopped going to church.
In any case, it doesn't matter. I just wondered if you worked here.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Several, but that would be to enumerate the number of Christians I know who faithfully attempt to updhold all the laws and have not failed to do so while in my company.

Weird, I see plenty of Christian folks that can't even uphold them all just on this board. Judge not lest ye be judged... or some very slight variation of that depending on the bible. Why does that phrase rattle around in my head so often when discussing the moral superiority of Christian tenets. One of life's little mysteries I guess.

[Virgil Showlion]

Judge not lest ye be judged... or some very slight variation of that depending on the bible.

It means "judge not others, lest you be judged by the same standard". Of course, there are certain laws under which we'll all be judged, regardless of our personal beliefs. But in addition to these, people (including Christians) have a tendency to judge others on matters that aren't covered by scripture. For example (from P&M), where to draw the line when taxing the rich, or when entrepreneurship in times of crisis becomes exploitation. For these matters, we're warned that whatever measure we apply to others will be measured back to us. There are various scriptures that expound this principle, but we'll leave that for a 'Religious Discussion' thread.

In any case, it doesn't matter. I just wondered if you worked here.

It would be fair to say "no". I've had contract work in Quebec once or twice, but never "dozens of colleagues and acquaintances".

I do have a good friend in QC, but he's a die-hard atheist.

[mmhmm]

Why does your good friend's atheism bring about a sad face, Virgil? I'm a die-hard atheist and I can assure you I don't wish anyone to feel badly for me, or sad because of my choice of belief. If I don't miss my guess, your good friend feels much the same. He, or she, would much rather have people respect his choice as his choice, and enjoy him as a person without reflection on his lack of religiosity. We're defined by many factors, and facets of personality. All come together to create the person. Without each in place, as it is, your friend would not be your friend. What a loss that would be.

[Virgil Showlion]

The sad face is because the statement undermines my original argument that Quebec isn't more hostile to religion than is Ontario.

And by "die-hard atheist", I mean an active, vocal, palpable resentment for God and what He represents. We don't discuss religious or spiritual matters, for sake of our friendship.

[swamp]

I've found that some deeply religious people just assume that I am a devout Christian, and also assume most other people believe as they do. I generally don't talk about religion, so I have no idea why they would think so.

[swamp]

Dec 13, 2012 20:34:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

The sad face is because the statement undermines my original argument that Quebec isn't more hostile to religion than is Ontario.

And by "die-hard atheist", I mean an active, vocal, palpable resentment for God and what He represents. We don't discuss religious or spiritual matters, for sake of our friendship.

How does an atheist resent god if he doesn't believe in him?

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 13, 2012 20:44:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

Dec 13, 2012 20:34:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

The sad face is because the statement undermines my original argument that Quebec isn't more hostile to religion than is Ontario.

And by "die-hard atheist", I mean an active, vocal, palpable resentment for God and what He represents. We don't discuss religious or spiritual matters, for sake of our friendship.

How does an atheist resent god if he doesn't believe in him?

I've asked myself the same question.

It usually boils down to one of five scenarios:

1. Joe resents the notion of God (i.e. the notion that God exists as proscribed by scripture).
2. Joe is an agnostic, and (due to Joe's particular understanding) fears and/or abhors the possibility that 'such a' God could exist.
3. Joe believes that Jack's faith is a detriment to Jack and others, and thus resents the faith.
4. Joe resents Jack's ability to find solace in what Joe considers to be a feeble delusion.
5. Joe believes in God, resents God, and identifies as an "atheist" because it's the most compatible doctrine.

[mmhmm]

Dec 13, 2012 20:42:49 GMT -5 swamp said:

I've found that some deeply religious people just assume that I am a devout Christian, and also assume most other people believe as they do. I generally don't talk about religion, so I have no idea why they would think so.

I've found the same, swamp. It's not something I normally discuss, but people seem to make assumptions. Since it's not important to me, one way or the other, I allow those assumptions to go unchallenged ... unless the holder of the assumption decides to make an issue of it. I won't lie, but I won't push buttons, either.

[mmhmm]

Dec 13, 2012 20:34:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

The sad face is because the statement undermines my original argument that Quebec isn't more hostile to religion than is Ontario.

And by "die-hard atheist", I mean an active, vocal, palpable resentment for God and what He represents. We don't discuss religious or spiritual matters, for sake of our friendship.

Ahh. That would be, to my way of thinking, a rather militant atheist. That, I'm most definitely not!

[Virgil Showlion]

I've found the same, swamp. It's not something I normally discuss, but people seem to make assumptions. Since it's not important to me, one way or the other, I allow those assumptions to go unchallenged ... unless the holder of the assumption decides to make an issue of it. I won't lie, but I won't push buttons, either.

Christian or not, I don't see why you should interpret it as anything other than a compliment.

People tend to say things like that when you're putting in hours at a soup kitchen.

They tend not to say things like that when you're bragging online about your six-figure salary.

[mmhmm]

Dec 13, 2012 21:26:46 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Christian or not, I don't see why you should interpret it as anything other than a compliment.

Hmm? I just got back to the board, so I'm at a loss as to the context of this statement.

[Virgil Showlion]

Hmm? I just got back to the board, so I'm at a loss as to the context of this statement.

You 'inserted' yourself between Ms. Swamp's reply and my own.

[mmhmm]

Ahh! Thanks, Virgil! I was scratchin' my head here. ;D

[djAdvocate]

Dec 13, 2012 21:30:22 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Hmm? I just got back to the board, so I'm at a loss as to the context of this statement.

You 'inserted' yourself between Ms. Swamp's reply and my own.

heh. he said "inserted".

[chiver78]

Dec 13, 2012 21:26:46 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I've found the same, swamp. It's not something I normally discuss, but people seem to make assumptions. Since it's not important to me, one way or the other, I allow those assumptions to go unchallenged ... unless the holder of the assumption decides to make an issue of it. I won't lie, but I won't push buttons, either.

Christian or not, I don't see why you should interpret it as anything other than a compliment.

People tend to say things like that when you're putting in hours at a soup kitchen.

They tend not to say things like that when you're bragging online about your six-figure salary.

I'll make the same comment here as I made a few months back after a strange exchange in my local supermarket (I'm happy to recount that later when I'm not just on my phone...) but why should I be considering it a compliment that someone else can't fathom "good" coming from someone who ISN'T Christian?

sent from my electronic distraction.

[happyhoix]

"I've asked myself the same question.

It usually boils down to one of five scenarios:"

"1. Joe resents the notion of God (i.e. the notion that God exists as proscribed by scripture)."
I've never met an atheist like this.

"2. Joe is an agnostic, and (due to Joe's particular understanding) fears and/or abhors the possibility that 'such a' God could exist."

Never met an agnostic like this - agnostics are undecided, but not fearful, as a rule.

"3. Joe believes that Jack's faith is a detriment to Jack and others, and thus resents the faith."
This one, I think, fits most of the atheists I know. It isn't so much that they think the faith is a detriment, but they resent all the money that gets poured into Churches, which some churches seem to spend on questionable things (Remember Jim Baker and his house with the gold bathroom fittings?)

"4. Joe resents Jack's ability to find solace in what Joe considers to be a feeble delusion."
Again, I haven't ever met an atheist who feels this way. It's a hard world, why would anyone begrudge anyone else a means to find solace in it? I know some people who like to handle crystals because they think they are a source of power - if that helps them, I'm all for it, even though I don't believe that myself.

"5. Joe believes in God, resents God, and identifies as an "atheist" because it's the most compatible doctrine."

See I'm not sure this is actually possible. An atheist, by definition, does not believe in God. Someone who does believe in God and resents him would, I think, be more likely to self-identify as a fallen Catholic or lapsed Baptist.

I think you're confusing atheists with people who actively hate God and resent Him. Atheists don't hate God, any more than they hate the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. If they're going to be angry about how their life has gone, they would rage against fate, or rage against the liberals, or rage against the commies, or rage against the neighbor with the dog that shits in their yard. But they wouldn't rage against God, because to them, there is no God. Many atheists do resent the amount of time and money that organized churches consume, because they don't think all that time and money is put to the best use, and they might resent how much destruction and misery religious zealots have imposed on the world throughout history, but they don't hate God.

[zdaddy]

Dec 13, 2012 14:51:23 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

I work in tech and have met a number of really great people who are atheists/agnostics. All of them have pretty harrowing stories of how their families and society in general have treated them because of their beliefs. I may not share their beliefs, but I think there is plenty of discrimination against the non-religious in America. Here's a great example - I can't think of one politician at the federal level who is an avowed atheist. Quite the contrary - politicians seem to fall all over themselves to go to prayer breakfasts, invoke God's will in budget hearings, etc.



Not sure what your reply has to do with the post I made.

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but from what I read you were saying that the non-religious shouldn't be seen as a minority group and that they are in no way oppressed by the majority. I was offering the opposite opinion - that actually it's extremely difficult to be non-religious in America, and that the non-religious are discriminated against especially in highly conservative areas. Therefore, it makes perfect sense for them to band together and support the party that respects their beliefs and fights the hardest for separation of church and state.

EDIT: Found an interesting international study showing just how oppressed the non-religious are around the world. Sadly, America is on the list along with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. In seven states there are laws forbidding atheists from running for office, and in Arkansas atheists aren't allowed to even testify in a trial. So yes, there's still lots of discrimination against the non-religious. In fact, in some ways it's worse than discrimination against minorities as there are no more laws forbidding African Americans from holding office.


worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/10/15814394-like-lesser-americans-atheists-face-discrimination-persecution-report-says?lite

[Virgil Showlion]

but why should I be considering it a compliment that someone else can't fathom "good" coming from someone who ISN'T Christian?

It's not unfathomable. But if it's an act of exceptional goodness, far above societal norms, it's very likely religiously motivated. That's just the statistical nature of the beast.

I've never met an atheist like this.

I contemplated adding "Number #3 is typically the only reason atheists will admit to." but decided not to since the statement was obvious.

What atheists 'really think' about God and about the notion of God is an individual matter, quickly revealed by what is said, done, rebutted, ignored, mocked, etc. The choice of words, choice of comparisons, fixation on particular details, promotion of certain writers and literature, and dozens of other 'tells' quickly distinguish between purely "type 3" atheists, and mixed-type atheists.

We know that many people who call themselves "good Christians" are anything but. Let's just say that in my experience, it's as easy to distinguish between an objective type-3 atheists and mixed-type atheists as it is for you to distinguish between Christians and "Christians". Hypocrisy, I'm afraid, isn't simply confined to religious spheres. :-\

At any rate, this discussion is drifting ever further away from the central point of the thread, and it wasn't my intent to provoke the local atheists.

I don't even know what percentage of the "nones" identify as atheists. I do know several deists—believing in some higher power—but refuse to participate in organized religion. And I know plenty of agnostics who aren't quite sure what they believe.

[Virgil Showlion]

What does a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac do?


Stays awake all night wondering if there really is a dog.

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2012 15:11:53 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

What does a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac do?


Stays awake all night wondering if there really is a dog.

I like that this board occasionally examines the big picture(s)...I'm curious to ask you what made you the way you are? And you are free to ask the same...but honestly, I need to find my younger son a PS3 controller, preferably in white or black, other colors won't do. That is my big picture. lol

You are an interesting guy...a bit out of time, but that's ok.