973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Dec 6, 2012 10:16:09 GMT -5
Most people (not all) don't have to "learn" English. You are native speakers. Assuming you were surrounded by people who spoke English fairly correctly, you only have to learn a few rules that primarily pertain to Written Standard English. For example, in Oral Standard English, fragments are no big deal. It's how we communicate. ---------------- I don't think it's a question of "learning" English. It's more like "memorizing" English. There are no rules, only exceptions. I found it a bitch to learn. If it's one house and two houses, why is it not one mouse and two mouses? If it's one goose and two geese, why is it not one moose and two meese? If it's one dish and two dishes, why is it not one fish and two fishes? Nothing about English made any sense to me when I was learning it. Because English is a mixture of Latin, Greek and other languages. the words from Latin are made plural based on how Latin does it. The words from Greek are made plural based on how it is done in Greek. The confusing part is that they do it in a completely different ways.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 6, 2012 11:18:51 GMT -5
I don't know the details about the high schools around here, but our ELEMENTARY (K-4) school is going for an IB designation, and starting next year will offer Spanish and Mandarin. Since I feel like the Spanish speakers and the Chinese are going to take over the world - it seems like two very good languages to learn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 11:45:20 GMT -5
I don't know the details about the high schools around here, but our ELEMENTARY (K-4) school is going for an IB designation, and starting next year will offer Spanish and Mandarin. Since I feel like the Spanish speakers and the Chinese are going to take over the world - it seems like two very good languages to learn. That's great that your kids can start so young! Like I said my son's stepmother is from China and her parents are here for a year helping out with their new baby. My son has picked up a lot of Mandarin just being around them since that's pretty much all they know how to speak, but the writing is overwhelming for him and he wants nothing to do with that.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 6, 2012 11:55:45 GMT -5
As you can probably tell, I hate forign language and can't grasp it well at all. English has served me well enough. I wasn't going to say anything until I saw this one. for starters, there is more than just a single language that would be foreign to you. that would be a "them" that you can't grasp, not an "it". unless you're just referring to the idea of learning another language, in which case you didn't present that very clearly at all. are you sure that English has served you well enough? past that, you strike me as particularly arrogant that others will learn English to accommodate YOU. that is, unless you never plan to travel to places where English isn't the national language. oh, wait - it's not the national language here, either. take a personal anecdote - I found myself lost in Venice a couple years back, early enough in the trip that the pidgin Italian I was able to speak by the end hadn't yet taken hold. I was able to ask for and receive directions from a local - in French, because that woman didn't speak English. you never know when it might come in handy to have an alternative way to communicate. That comment about not learning Spanish to accommodate other people was directed towards people Robert mentioned, people here in the U.S who refuse to learn English. If they're in the U.S and don't want to learn English I'm not going to learn Spanish to accommodate them. If traveling to a different country, say France for example, I'd do my best to learn some important phrases because I think it's polite when you visit a country to at least attempt to communicate in their language. As for my learning languages. As I said, I attempted French and Spanish but never really got the "hang" of it. I'm just not that great at root memorization. I guess it's possible there could be languages out there I'd have an easier time with.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 6, 2012 11:58:21 GMT -5
I'm certainly not going to learn spanish to accomidate them. ---------------------- Evidently, you didn't learn English, either. Apparantly not ;D Good catch.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 6, 2012 12:02:14 GMT -5
"How utterly dreadful to live in such a narrow little world."
I don't think so. I don't think it's unreasonable if you visit a country to try and learn some basic phrases and attempt to communicate in their native tongue. And I also don't think it's unreasonable if you move to a country you learn the local language. If for whatever reason I moved to another country where English wasn't the accepted language, I'd do my best to learn it. By the same token, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people here in the U.S to speak English.
Just as it would be rude of me to go to Italy and expect them to speak English, it's rude of people here in the U.S to expect us to learn Spanish to accommodate them.
Personally, if you think it's okay for people here to not learn English but think I "live in a small world" because I won't learn Spanish to accommodate them, then that's a hypocritical argument.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 6, 2012 12:05:31 GMT -5
"I'm pretty sure the engineering program I went to at a top 25 engineering school required 2 years of a foreign language when I was admitted in 1983."
I guess it depends on where you go to school. It was never an issue when I applied to any of my undergraduate colleges. Never even came up. When I recently was accepted to a top engineering graduate school, they never brought it up either.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Dec 6, 2012 12:09:00 GMT -5
I'm certainly not going to learn spanish to accomidate them. ---------------------- Evidently, you didn't learn English, either. Apparantly not ;D Good catch. You are a class act, Pheonx
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p8nt
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Post by p8nt on Dec 6, 2012 15:31:23 GMT -5
Ours only offers Spanish and French.
I just saw that BYU offers a 3 week intenstive summer program that gives you an entire year of HS foreign language credit. Too late for my kids, but I'd totally be checking into it if they were freshmen.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Dec 6, 2012 15:41:58 GMT -5
"Spanish is good domestically particularly if you are in a part of the country with an overwhelmingly large Hispanic population (they don't want to seem to learn English)," That's their problem. I'm certainly not going to learn spanish to accomidate them. As I said, even if you do manage to learn a language, unless you immerse yourself in it and practice it frequently you'll likely lose it. So I think learning a language is a waste of time unless you plan on speaking it regularly as part of your daily life. *shrugs* then again you learn lots of stuff you don't use every day, so language isn't unique in that regard. I read Spanish much better than I speak it. I guess I retained the written language. When talking i get tripped up by my lack of vocabulary. However, I can read the company documents coming out of Spain fairly well. I also remember one time I was at an urgent care and their sign-in directions were posted on the wall, the English ones were behind an office plant, so I read the Spanish ones for information. It was helpful
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Dec 6, 2012 15:47:12 GMT -5
"How utterly dreadful to live in such a narrow little world." I don't think so. I don't think it's unreasonable if you visit a country to try and learn some basic phrases and attempt to communicate in their native tongue. And I also don't think it's unreasonable if you move to a country you learn the local language. If for whatever reason I moved to another country where English wasn't the accepted language, I'd do my best to learn it. By the same token, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people here in the U.S to speak English. Just as it would be rude of me to go to Italy and expect them to speak English, it's rude of people here in the U.S to expect us to learn Spanish to accommodate them. Personally, if you think it's okay for people here to not learn English but think I "live in a small world" because I won't learn Spanish to accommodate them, then that's a hypocritical argument. Okay funny story. I was in Spain and didn't hae a wristwatch. I asked a lady there "what time is it?" in Spanish. She answered me in something that sounded Italian. So I tried again in French ( I know how to say about 5 things in french, and asking for the time is one), and got German-sounding something. So I tried English, and she said with a heavy accent "Oh good, I speak this one too"
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 6, 2012 18:24:38 GMT -5
Most people (not all) don't have to "learn" English. You are native speakers. Assuming you were surrounded by people who spoke English fairly correctly, you only have to learn a few rules that primarily pertain to Written Standard English. For example, in Oral Standard English, fragments are no big deal. It's how we communicate. ---------------- I don't think it's a question of "learning" English. It's more like "memorizing" English. There are no rules, only exceptions. I found it a bitch to learn. If it's one house and two houses, why is it not one mouse and two mouses? If it's one goose and two geese, why is it not one moose and two meese? If it's one dish and two dishes, why is it not one fish and two fishes? Nothing about English made any sense to me when I was learning it. Because English is a mixture of Latin, Greek and other languages. the words from Latin are made plural based on how Latin does it. The words from Greek are made plural based on how it is done in Greek. The confusing part is that they do it in a completely different ways. I found it all confusing. A "gh" sounds like a "g" when it doesn't sound like an "f", unless it's silent, when it doesn't sound like a "g" and then "h". Ghost Tough Eight Foghorn
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Dec 6, 2012 19:04:05 GMT -5
Most people (not all) don't have to "learn" English. You are native speakers. Assuming you were surrounded by people who spoke English fairly correctly, you only have to learn a few rules that primarily pertain to Written Standard English. For example, in Oral Standard English, fragments are no big deal. It's how we communicate. ---------------- I don't think it's a question of "learning" English. It's more like "memorizing" English. There are no rules, only exceptions. I found it a bitch to learn. If it's one house and two houses, why is it not one mouse and two mouses? If it's one goose and two geese, why is it not one moose and two meese? If it's one dish and two dishes, why is it not one fish and two fishes? Nothing about English made any sense to me when I was learning it. Because English is a mixture of Latin, Greek and other languages. the words from Latin are made plural based on how Latin does it. The words from Greek are made plural based on how it is done in Greek. The confusing part is that they do it in a completely different ways. English is actually a Germanic language - take a look at German, Dutch, Flemish writings and if you can handle the vocabulary, you can pick out similar sentence structures. we may have picked up quite a lot of words from other languages, but the base of our language is definitely Germanic. lots of links on this topic, but this will do for now: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 6, 2012 19:15:11 GMT -5
My first language was Russian, my second was French, but when I tried to learn English, it was like WTF??
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 7, 2012 11:30:58 GMT -5
One other thing I wanted to mention to Megahn.
Why is it okay for people to not be good at Math or Science but not good at foreign language? I could say that anyone who hasn't taken or enjoyed calculus, or quantum mechanics or reactor physics, radiation biology, elementary particles, or nuclear physics had a "small world." But I don't because I know that everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and just because they aren't good at those things doesn't make the dumb or "live in a small world." Face it Megahn, I'm not good at memorizing foreign language. Sorry if you think that means I'm dumb or "live in a small world."
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Dec 7, 2012 11:57:09 GMT -5
FWIW, Pheonix, I was as baffled by that comment as you, and I worked as an ESL teacher!
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Dec 7, 2012 12:04:38 GMT -5
Our local school district only offers Spanish now. DD1 took French, but her class was the last one with that option. Three years of a language are a requirement for HS graduation (or replacement w/ 5 courses in another area like Art.)
My HS offered French, Spanish and Latin; I took 3 years of Latin. There was also a rotating I&II class for those that had completed their 3 year foreign language requirement. The year I was eligible for it, a number of fellow Latin students and I wanted to take Greek I&II, but couldn't convince the school. It was the year for Latin I&II - take it or leave it.
Every college seems to have different requirements. My college had 7 Area Studies that you had to take 2 classes in. Your major would fall in one or more Areas, and thus cover your 2 classes in those Areas. Math and computer science fell under the Languages AS. Of course, CSC did require that you take Programming Languages, and you needed to understand syntax and how to parse a language to write a compiler. ;D
DD1 took ASL (big deaf community at her U) and Japanese in college. DS2 hasn't taken ASL, but he's picked up some just from playing quiditch w/ some deaf teams/players (also big deaf community).
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 7, 2012 12:54:24 GMT -5
LOL - I agree. I can barely speak the language I have! And I can't paint a picture.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Dec 7, 2012 16:09:44 GMT -5
Because English is a mixture of Latin, Greek and other languages. the words from Latin are made plural based on how Latin does it. The words from Greek are made plural based on how it is done in Greek. The confusing part is that they do it in a completely different ways. English is actually a Germanic language - take a look at German, Dutch, Flemish writings and if you can handle the vocabulary, you can pick out similar sentence structures. we may have picked up quite a lot of words from other languages, but the base of our language is definitely Germanic. lots of links on this topic, but this will do for now: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languagesThe words themseves are from the Latin or Greek even though our language does have Germanic roots. So words like bovine come from the latin. In Latin you don't add an S to make something plural so we don't to those words. But a word like cow comes from Greek so we do add an S to make it plural since in Greek you would add an S. That is also why we have two words to describe the exact same things like cow and bovine, canine and dogs, pigs and swine.
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kimber45
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Post by kimber45 on Dec 12, 2012 11:30:30 GMT -5
I think we only had German when I went to high school. DS had a choice between Spanish or French at his HS and chose French.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Dec 12, 2012 12:06:14 GMT -5
We got a box of German Chocolates at the office the other day. We had purchased some expensive piece of equipment from a German company and they sent the chocolates as a Christmas Present. My dad gave it to me to give to DS so he could in turn bring it in to his German Class today. Dad asked I gave DS the chocolates and I said yes and mentioned that German was one of his favorite classes in school. Dad says "yeah great, but he really should have taken Spanish". I don't know why he can't just let it go but he brings up the fact that I have failed DS for letting him take German like he wanted rather than force him to take Spanish. Dad's reasoning is that he took French in High School and never used it but every time he goes to his vacation home in Palm Springs he can't communicate with his gardener effectively. weltschmerz- One of DS' friends went to a Russian immersion camp this summer. DS' friends are very education driven. One attends an invitation only Math camp at Duke University every summer, DS does his engineering and robotics camps and Joe went to Russian Immersion Camp. He loved it. No reason behind it other than he just decided he wanted to learn Russian.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 12, 2012 14:16:00 GMT -5
weltschmerz- One of DS' friends went to a Russian immersion camp this summer. DS' friends are very education driven. One attends an invitation only Math camp at Duke University every summer, DS does his engineering and robotics camps and Joe went to Russian Immersion Camp. He loved it. No reason behind it other than he just decided he wanted to learn Russian. --------------- Russian is an "interesting" language to learn. Not only do you have an entirely different alphabet, but you're dealing with three different genders. Masculine, feminine and neutral. That being said, it's still easier than English. It follows rules and rarely deviates.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 12, 2012 14:36:20 GMT -5
One other thing I wanted to mention to Megahn. Why is it okay for people to not be good at Math or Science but not good at foreign language? I could say that anyone who hasn't taken or enjoyed calculus, or quantum mechanics or reactor physics, radiation biology, elementary particles, or nuclear physics had a "small world." But I don't because I know that everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and just because they aren't good at those things doesn't make the dumb or "live in a small world." Face it Megahn, I'm not good at memorizing foreign language. Sorry if you think that means I'm dumb or "live in a small world." Phoenix we would do better with foreign languages in this country if we started learning them a whole lot earlier. Like elementary school. Your brain is wired to learn language better the younger you are. By high school, you've lost a lot of that ability. It would also help if we were constantly exposed to other languages, but living in the States, you can go a long time without hearing anything but English. When I lived in Europe, the TV was in three different languages - lots of opportunities to develop and ear for them. So it isn't uncommon for Americans to have more difficulty learning a foreign language. We start learning math in kindergarden, we ought to start a foreign language then, too.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 12, 2012 14:45:10 GMT -5
As for what language to study, I studied French in HS and lived in a French speaking country in Europe for a while. When I came back to the US that seemed like a pretty useless skill, and I forgot most of it. Then my company got purchased by a large French company - and now it's actually useful! I'm going back and trying to re-learn what I forgot. I'm using the Fluenz program, and it's actually very good and makes learning a foreign language pretty painless. It's amazing how happy the French are when you try to speak their language, even if you mangle it badly. When I was visiting one of our facilities in France this year, limping along with my mediocre French, I had many employees thank me for making the effort. And not a single one laughed at my Southern AMerican accent.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 12, 2012 14:58:39 GMT -5
Why is it okay for people to not be good at Math or Science but not good at foreign language? I could say that anyone who hasn't taken or enjoyed calculus, or quantum mechanics or reactor physics, radiation biology, elementary particles, or nuclear physics had a "small world." But I don't because I know that everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and just because they aren't good at those things doesn't make the dumb or "live in a small world." Face it Megahn, I'm not good at memorizing foreign language. Sorry if you think that means I'm dumb or "live in a small world." ---------------- Ok, so you're not good at learning foreign languages, and that's fine. However, you said you HATE foreign languages and that's altogether different. Some people may not be good at math or science, but to say they HATE math or science would be silly. I mean, really...who HATES French and Italian and Greek and Farsi? I think that's why people attacked the post.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 12, 2012 15:00:22 GMT -5
It's amazing how happy the French are when you try to speak their language, even if you mangle it badly. When I was visiting one of our facilities in France this year, limping along with my mediocre French, I had many employees thank me for making the effort. And not a single one laughed at my Southern AMerican accent. --------------- This is true. The French who work in the service industry here are able to speak English, but they really appreciate you making the effort to speak French, no matter how badly you mangle it.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Dec 12, 2012 16:10:33 GMT -5
I took French as did a half dozen of my friends and one brother. I haven't used it at all and haven't needed any other languages either. I did work one place were we dealt with people from other places but most brought their kids to interpret for them. One coworker was from the Ukraine so she interpreted for all those and Russians.
There isn't a way for a preschool child to know what language will be helpful unless they have parents who speak it to teach them. My niece was born in Spain so had Spanish babysitters and her brother was there from 2-4 Yo but neither knows it as an adult.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 16:28:55 GMT -5
"How utterly dreadful to live in such a narrow little world." I don't think so. I don't think it's unreasonable if you visit a country to try and learn some basic phrases and attempt to communicate in their native tongue. And I also don't think it's unreasonable if you move to a country you learn the local language. If for whatever reason I moved to another country where English wasn't the accepted language, I'd do my best to learn it. By the same token, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people here in the U.S to speak English. Just as it would be rude of me to go to Italy and expect them to speak English, it's rude of people here in the U.S to expect us to learn Spanish to accommodate them. Personally, if you think it's okay for people here to not learn English but think I "live in a small world" because I won't learn Spanish to accommodate them, then that's a hypocritical argument. When DW and I visited France in 2004 I had a coworker who is Parisian by birth - he gave me all kinds of hints and tips to visiting France and how to avoid being labeled as an "ugly American". The number one thing (right ahead of not wearing white sneakers and jeans everywhere) was to learn basic words and phrases in French. Most important one, you ask? (pardon spelling) "Je parle Francais en peu, tu parlez Anglais?" - "I only speak a little French, do you speak English?" The French take it as an affront (go figure) if you just start jabbering at them in English without trying to speak French --even if it is you saying "I can't". (Also a biggie in stores - say "Allo", "Bonjour" to shopkeepers if you want decent service later when you need it.)
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 12, 2012 18:06:53 GMT -5
Most important one, you ask? (pardon spelling) "Je parle Francais en peu, tu parlez Anglais?" ---------------- It's either "tu parles" or "vous parlez". If you're speaking to strangers, it's more polite to use the formal "vous".
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Dec 12, 2012 18:28:15 GMT -5
Most important one, you ask? (pardon spelling) "Je parle Francais en peu, tu parlez Anglais?" ---------------- It's either "tu parles" or "vous parlez". If you're speaking to strangers, it's more polite to use the formal "vous". good catch. I applaud him for making the effort, though. that's a lot more than many people will do. I've been the unofficial translator for a group of colleagues (and boss at the time) during a couple trips to France. the colleagues were at varying comfort levels with basic pleasantries, but my boss was just awful. he would answer "Bonjour" with "Hello!" and a big toothy grin. <smh> because my own dialect is just so different from Parisian French, I found myself uttering a similar warning - one that said I could understand French a lot better than I could speak it, and if they could understand English I would just speak that, and that they could continue to speak French if that worked for them. it worked out mostly okay.
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