Marrying out of poverty

[susanb]

Some recent posts and my own life experiences have made me think about this quite a bit.

My mom had a stem degree and was married when she had me, but after my father abandoned her (when I was an infant), we lived in poverty until she re-married when I was about 9. Before my mom gets lynched by YM, she never took any social assistance even though she qualified. My father's income was about the same as hers at the time, but having a combined income took us both out of poverty.

Unmarried women have very high poverty rates, relative to both the general population and to married women:

"59 percent of adults in poverty are women; and 13 percent of all adult women are in poverty. Three-quarters of these women are women on their own—widowed, divorced, separated, or never married—despite being less than half (47 percent) of the population of adult women. These unmarried women have appreciably higher poverty rates than married women—20.8 percent versus 6.2 percent."
www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/news/2009/09/10/6683/unmarried-women-hit-hard-by-poverty/

My own marriage gives me substantial financial benefits.

What do the rest of you think? Is marriage a route out of poverty? Why are poverty rates so much higher for unmarried women than men? What, if anything, can be done to help poverty rates among unmarried women?

[Deleted]

Why are poverty rates so much higher for unmarried women than men?

Traditionally the kids stay with the mother. Also women have traditionally been paid less than men. Less money to take care of more people can lead to poverty.

[biglin]

Well, I came from a poor family and I got married to a man from a rich one so I suppose I'm probably not typical. I think most women tend to marry men on roughly the same economic level as they are.

What I do know from other couples we're friends with is that overall they seem to be better off than when they were single. But it's not straightforward; in some ways the economic system favours single people over married ones.

And the one thing I'd say is that 9 out of every 10 divorced couples I know the woman comes out of it better than the man - especially if there are children.

But I think marriage isn't something you SHOULD do for money. I loved my husband and that's why I married him. I didn't know his family were wealthy till we got engaged.

And then his mum accused me of being a goldigger so I had to sign a prenuptial to keep her happy!

[susanb]

True. Child support is also much easier to access. My biological father made the equivalent of 75k a year, or 200k in today's dollars. He paid less than $100 in child support one time. Today that wouldn't happen, but I don't know if he would be asked to shoulder his "share" of the burden.

ETA: One of the problems with our current welfare system is that if an unmarried woman is on welfare and "turns in" the bio dad for support, the support amount is deducted from her cash assistance. This motivates women in this situation to avoid telling the state who the father is. She can then keep the cash assistance and tell the dad that she won't turn him in if he gives her a small amount each month. Another case where the system is set up to penalize behavior we should want to encourage (father's supporting their own children).

[Deleted]

First I think you have to consider how poverty is calculated. It makes sense that married people would be statistically less likely to be in "poverty." Poverty for a single may be X, but poverty for a couple isn't 2X. So if you take 2 people who would be in poverty alone and couple them, then like magic, they are out of poverty. Still poor though.

I better comparison is to compare single men to single women and try to figure out why there is a disparity between them. My guess is that it is a mix of picking lower paying careers and having custody of the children, which comes with childcare problems and adds another person to the household, making the income threshold needed to get out of "poverty" higher.

[zibazinski]

Easily remedied by not paying people to have children.

[jaya3300]

marrying can be a route out of poverty if the woman chooses wisely (marry a rich guy, marry a man who is not oppose to work, or marry a man who will support her education and career goals)


poverty rates so much higher for unmarried women than men because women statistically live longer, women are paid less, children were traditionally awarded to women after a divorce, and women were more likely to stay home to raise the children.

What, if anything, can be done to help poverty rates among unmarried women? education, equitable pay, and affordable contraceptives would be a start

[Sum Dum Gai]

Easily remedied by not paying people to have children.

I'm no historian or anything, but I'm pretty sure people have been making babies all through human history whether they were paid to do so or not. Even in places where there are food and water shortages, people starving to death, etc., people still be making babies. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but something tells me your solution wouldn't turn out like you think it would.

More importantly, go read the OP. They were a dual income family when they made the baby. The dude split later. How will getting rid of welfare stop that exactly?

[swamp]

Nov 8, 2012 20:15:49 GMT -5 jaya3300 said:

marrying can be a route out of poverty if the woman chooses wisely (marry a rich guy, marry a man who is not oppose to work, or marry a man who will support her education and career goals)

How do you choose so your husband doesn't leave you?

[Sum Dum Gai]

How do you choose so your husband doesn't leave you?

Step one: Watch the movie Misery.
Step two: Purchase length of 4x4 and sledgehammer at Lowes.
Step three: This part will be hard to explain, but if you watch the movie you'll know what to do.

Done.

[swamp]

Nov 8, 2012 20:23:08 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

How do you choose so your husband doesn't leave you?

Step one: Watch the movie Misery.
Step two: Purchase length of 4x4 and sledgehammer at Lowes.
Step three: This part will be hard to explain, but if you watch the movie you'll know what to do.

Done.

But then he's disabled and he can't go to work.

[whoisjohngalt]

How do you choose so your husband doesn't leave you?

I've thought about it a lot before I got married, for a number of reasons. A few things I looked at were how he was with his own family, how he took responsibilities in general, his overall values, things like that. But at the end of the day I wonder if it's just a crap shot.

Lena

ETA: all that being said, the ONLY reason I majored in accounting is bc I needed the comfort of knowing that no matter what, I could always find a job. Anytime. Anywhere

[kittensaver]

Nov 8, 2012 20:23:59 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 8, 2012 20:23:08 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Step one: Watch the movie Misery.
Step two: Purchase length of 4x4 and sledgehammer at Lowes.
Step three: This part will be hard to explain, but if you watch the movie you'll know what to do.

Done.

But then he's disabled and he can't go to work.

Oh yes he can! He's just a leach trying to play the system . . .

[quince]

Crystal ball?

[swamp]

Nov 8, 2012 20:25:20 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

How do you choose so your husband doesn't leave you?

I've thought about it a lot before I got married, for a number of reasons. A few things I looked at were how he was with his own family, how he took responsibilities in general, his overall values, things like that. But at the end of the day I wonder if it's just a crap shot.

Lena

ETA: all that being said, the ONLY reason I majored in accounting is bc I needed the comfort of knowing that no matter what, I could always find a job. Anytime. Anywhere

It is a crap shoot. DH is a responsible stand up guy, but I don't KNOW what he's going to do. I can only hope for the best. And be nice to him so he doesn't want to leave.

[Sum Dum Gai]

But then he's disabled and he can't go to work.

Get that lazy bastard a laptop and wireless internet. Plenty of people make money that way. Too disabled to work... bah. Back in my day people routinely got cut in half in sawmill accidents and not only finished their shift, but worked a double and tied a few on at the bar on the way home, before they'd sleep it off and be fine the next day.

[susanb]

Nov 8, 2012 20:25:20 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

How do you choose so your husband doesn't leave you?

I've thought about it a lot before I got married, for a number of reasons. A few things I looked at were how he was with his own family, how he took responsibilities in general, his overall values, things like that. But at the end of the day I wonder if it's just a crap shot.

Lena

My mom chose a husband who:
1. she met at church and thought she shared values with
2. whose own parents were still married
3. was college educated

My mom grew up in horrible conditions and probably wasn't a great judge of character, but she sure gave it a shot.

[doxieluvr]

Nov 8, 2012 19:32:40 GMT -5 susanb said:

True. Child support is also much easier to access. My biological father made the equivalent of 75k a year, or 200k in today's dollars. He paid less than $100 in child support one time. Today that wouldn't happen, but I don't know if he would be asked to shoulder his "share" of the burden.

ETA: One of the problems with our current welfare system is that if an unmarried woman is on welfare and "turns in" the bio dad for support, the support amount is deducted from her cash assistance. This motivates women in this situation to avoid telling the state who the father is. She can then keep the cash assistance and tell the dad that she won't turn him in if he gives her a small amount each month. Another case where the system is set up to penalize behavior we should want to encourage (father's supporting their own children).

Where do you get your info? Seriously, there are high wage earners not paying child support. Child support is not a given today just as it was not years ago.

[whoisjohngalt]

My DH is a family guy to a fault. Too much, if you ask me, and that's why I don't think he would leave, ESPECIALLY since we have kids. The thing is, I don't know if it's that good of a thing, bc if me and him don't get along, I can see him wanting to stay married anyway bc he so strongly believes in marriage. I don't agree with that.

Lena

[suesinfl]

But he can work, he writes novels for a living.

As far as child support, a woman/man cannot count on that. It doesn't mean that the person is a deadbeat, but if said person lost their job and was no longer able to support the child/ren as they did in the past, it does affect the household that has custody.

ETA: this was in response to Swamp's post earlier. You guys are just too quick for me. ;D

[susanb]

Doxie, I never said that there aren't some high wage earners who fail to pay support. However, laws that enforce child support now include measures such as wage garnishment and, in some states, even jail time for those who fail to pay ordered support. Those enforcement measures now exist in the state where my I am from. They did not when I was a child.

[doxieluvr]

Nov 8, 2012 20:28:02 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 8, 2012 20:25:20 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I've thought about it a lot before I got married, for a number of reasons. A few things I looked at were how he was with his own family, how he took responsibilities in general, his overall values, things like that. But at the end of the day I wonder if it's just a crap shot.

Lena

ETA: all that being said, the ONLY reason I majored in accounting is bc I needed the comfort of knowing that no matter what, I could always find a job. Anytime. Anywhere

It is a crap shoot. DH is a responsible stand up guy, but I don't KNOW what he's going to do. I can only hope for the best. And be nice to him so he doesn't want to leave.

So true! One of my closest friends is married to her high school sweetheart. They have been married 15 years. He has always been a wonderful man.

They came home from vacation this summer. He announced he had a girlfriend and filed for divorce. She has the kid, no child support and he has left the area to be with the girlfriend.

[doxieluvr]

Nov 8, 2012 20:35:19 GMT -5 susanb said:

Doxie, I never said that there aren't some high wage earners who fail to pay support. However, laws that enforce child support now include measures such as wage garnishment and, in some states, even jail time for those who fail to pay ordered support. Those enforcement measures now exist in the state where my I am from. They did not when I was a child.

This is what they want you to think. Be stuck in the child support system, with an account showing $38k in arrears, then see how the system works. Reality of having wages garnished and jail time is really quite uncommon.

[swamp]

When dad makes his living in illegal activities, it's not like you can garnish his wages.

[suesinfl]

Nov 8, 2012 20:28:23 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

But then he's disabled and he can't go to work.

Get that lazy bastard a laptop and wireless internet. Plenty of people make money that way. Too disabled to work... bah. Back in my day people routinely got cut in half in sawmill accidents and not only finished their shift, but worked a double and tied a few on at the bar on the way home, before they'd sleep it off and be fine the next day.

Oh what's her name, did she write this?? ;D I really do hope that she is Ok.

[wvugurl26]

Nov 8, 2012 20:38:31 GMT -5 doxieluvr said:

Nov 8, 2012 20:35:19 GMT -5 susanb said:

Doxie, I never said that there aren't some high wage earners who fail to pay support. However, laws that enforce child support now include measures such as wage garnishment and, in some states, even jail time for those who fail to pay ordered support. Those enforcement measures now exist in the state where my I am from. They did not when I was a child.

This is what they want you to think. Be stuck in the child support system, with an account showing $38k in arrears, then see how the system works. Reality of having wages garnished and jail time is really quite uncommon.

Those people do get arrested. They are rolling the dice. Feds routinely meet planes and arrest them returning to the US. Nothing is guaranteed but they are gambling and might run out of luck.

WV will suspend your driver's license if you are behind on child support.

[Sam_2.0]

LOL, in our relationship I am the breadwinner. DH may catch up to me in 2-3 more years. Not that I ever thought he would leave, but I could support DD and I on my own.

My mom married out of poverty. Well, more like from working-class poor to just barely above that, but growing up our home life was a million times better than what she grew up with.

I think the single biggest thing we can do is make reliable birth control available to young girls in HS and college. Give them IUDs and implants, when requested, and let them delay having children until they are really ready. No more 15-yr olds popping out kids. www.studlife.com/news/medical-news/2012/10/15/free-birth-control-limits-abortion-wu-study-finds/ To go back to the insurance debate - I would MUCH rather pay taxes for a $600 IUD than pay FS and welfare for a kid until its 18.

[Deleted]

Nov 8, 2012 20:20:19 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 8, 2012 20:15:49 GMT -5 jaya3300 said:

marrying can be a route out of poverty if the woman chooses wisely (marry a rich guy, marry a man who is not oppose to work, or marry a man who will support her education and career goals)

How do you choose so your husband doesn't leave you?

Yes, I'd like to know that! I went from a household income well into the 6 figures to poverty levels overnight when he bailed for a woman he'd been seeing on business trips. Totally. Blindsided.

[midjd]

What do the rest of you think? Is marriage a route out of poverty? Why are poverty rates so much higher for unmarried women than men? What, if anything, can be done to help poverty rates among unmarried women?

I don't know the answer... I want to say education and contraceptives, but I know plenty of single moms who are well-educated and whose children were planned.

I was raised by a single mom who earned <$20K a year throughout my childhood. Her mom died when she was young, her dad was a barber, blue-collar guy. My dad has a master's degree in economics, the son of a lawyer. I'm sure my mom thought she was marrying WAY up. She was wrong. (Ironically my mom is much more intelligent than my dad, despite how they may appear on paper).

I honestly don't know how she did it. The thought of having even one kid - with a committed partner - scares the shit out of me. From what I can tell, I've married a good guy who wouldn't leave me. His parents have been married for 30 years, together almost 40, and his sister (age 31) is married to the guy she's dated since junior high. But I think Lena is right... at the end of the day, it's a crapshoot.

[swamp]

When I married DH, his brothers had both been married for several years, and his parents had been together for about 40 years. Seems like a stable family right?

Since then, both brothers divorced and cheated on their wives, and they are the last guys in the world I thought would do that.