On the Qur'an and the Bible

[Opti]

Oct 15, 2012 19:25:38 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Oct 15, 2012 19:13:50 GMT -5 @gin1984 said:

No, you should not judge a large group, like a race or religion which has other identifying markers by those in the group that are extremists or violent. You can judge a group whose mission statements include violence. I included a more proper comparison, so you could understand, I assumed, wrongly, obviously, that you could extrapolate. My apologies. Angel explained more clearly and I have attempted to add in the explanation on why judging a religion on members who chose violence (when that is not the religion's mission statements) is different from judging a group that whose mission statements includes violence.

Is the mission statement of Muslims, the Koran? I ask, because it prescribes violence. As militias are scattered over the country and not centrally directed, I don't think there is a single mission statement for them. Perhaps you could link to one.

I am starting to think you believe the mission of militias is different from what I think. Tenessee linked to an article critical of militias, that stated most militia members were hardworking and law abiding Americans worried about their country. If you have something saying most militia members are violent extremists, please link.

I haven't read the Koran but I don't think it prescribes violence anymore than the bible does. Like most religious texts it depends more on who interprets it than anything else. I watch lots of Bollywood movies and a subgenre of them deal with the Muslim/Hindu/other conflict. (Huge history of violence between Pakastanis and Indians.) From what I get from them and real live Muslims I've talked to most Muslims have no interest in Jihad. It is not where they see the core of their religion and actions.

My nondenominational church BTW does have a mission statement. I don't think the actual sentences we use are found in the primary text we use either.

Lastly, Militias are formed not as a social group but a group that is willing to enforce its desired changes on the populace at large via a force. That's where the guns come in. The most logical analogy unfortunately is probably comparing them to street gangs who also want to preserve their culture by making sure other cultures(gangs) don't encroach on it. They also prefer to use force. Do some people join both because of unhappiness of others encroaching on space and bringing their culture to places it previously wasn't? Yes. Do some members prefer not to be violent. Probably. But if push comes to shove they know they are expected to be violent for the group and cause they joined for. This is not even just a gun club where people join to shoot at targets and improve their skills. These are organizations that want to reclaim what is theirs by violent means. For that reason, good people in gangs and militias is mostly a qualified good by the public at large. They are not the NAACP which advocates change by peaceful and legal means. They are closer to the legacy of the Black Panthers which also advocates change by whatever means at hand.

A peaceful way to preserve culture would be to start a culture club and hold events. I love Rednecks club or Southern Culture Club or whatever you want to call it. It can be done. Yes whoever starts it might get some grief but so what? All social movements usually have people trying to stop them. There wasn't universal cheers for the blacks or women getting rights. So why expect anything different if you want to create a peaceful way to preserve the piece of white culture you want to save. Just a thought.

[Angel!]

The bible on what to do with non-believers:

Deuteronomy
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

The koran isn't the only holy book that says non-believers should be put to death. If we are going to judge muslims for a few lines written in the koran that can be taken out of context, let's at least place that same judgement on christians.

ETA - I should say Jews as well when talking about judgement since the Torah is essentially the first 5 books of the bible & contains Deutoronomy & the above text.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Those Bible verses have nothing to do with "non-believers". They have to do with false prophets.

[Tennesseer]

The bible also states children who curse their parents should be put to death. ( (Leviticus 20:9)

[Tennesseer]

This is the fate for non-believers: 2 Chronicles 15:13

[Angel!]

Oct 16, 2012 11:23:14 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Those Bible verses have nothing to do with "non-believers". They have to do with false prophets.

If you say so. It still commands killing others making the Christian & Jewish holy books no different than the Koran in that aspect. If we are going to judge muslims by taken passages out of context & literally, then we should do the same for all religions.

13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

[Tennesseer]

Maybe this is why there are fewer folks getting married today: Deuteronomy 22:20-21

[Green Eyed Lady]

Oct 16, 2012 11:37:34 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Oct 16, 2012 11:32:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

This is the fate for non-believers: 2 Chronicles 15:13

Thanks, I knew there was a better verse.

15:13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

You do understand that was not God's command, right?

[Deleted]

The entire Bible was written by humans. Who's to say whether they got anything right?

[Tennesseer]

Oct 16, 2012 11:52:54 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Oct 16, 2012 11:37:34 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Thanks, I knew there was a better verse.

You do understand that was not God's command, right?

If those were not god's commands then how can we believe anything in the bible is god's word or at least inspired by god?

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 16, 2012 12:17:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 16, 2012 11:52:54 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

You do understand that was not God's command, right?

If those were not god's commands then how can we believe anything in the bible is god's word or at least inspired by god?

If I may interject, I believe her point is that 2 Chron 15:13 is referring to a covenant the Israelites are making before King Asa to obey the LORD, and the punishment for breaking this covenant (by following after other gods) is death.

Just my $0.02.

Carry on, citizens.

[Jaguar]

Oct 16, 2012 12:11:26 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

The entire Bible was written by humans. Who's to say whether they got anything right?

So bleeping >

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 16, 2012 13:47:33 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Oct 16, 2012 12:11:26 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

The entire Bible was written by humans. Who's to say whether they got anything right?

So bleeping >

snow leopards

[Jaguar]

Oct 16, 2012 15:33:46 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 16, 2012 13:47:33 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

So bleeping >

snow leopards

[trevorw2539]

Oct 16, 2012 12:44:45 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 16, 2012 12:17:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If those were not god's commands then how can we believe anything in the bible is god's word or at least inspired by god?

If I may interject, I believe her point is that 2 Chron 15:13 is referring to a covenant the Israelites are making before King Asa to obey the LORD, and the punishment for breaking this covenant (by following after other gods) is death.

Just my $0.02.

Carry on, citizens.

Agreed. Just as some of the other verses are taken out of context.

Just my 2 pence worth.

[mrsdutt]

Just to try to put things into some sort of perspective:

From what I can see from 35 years of study and research, the Old Testament was written to protect the Jews. There were hundreds of laws meant to keep them safe. It is also a chronicle of their ancient history.

When Christ came, He came to take the place of all the laws. He: 1. Died for our sins (oh, such a nasty word) 2. Left one commandment, that if faithfully followed, would put all other things in perspective.