thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,409
|
Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 12:49:50 GMT -5
So, we are believing the words of the mother, who thinks this child didn't do anything wrong, and her neighbor was wrong for calling police when he sees people in his yard with guns, that her son's version of the story that he didn't get snippy with a police officer is accurate?
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 12:51:09 GMT -5
Phoenix, it's difficult to articulate, so I'm probably not doing a good job of it. A large part of my reaction is that I deal with dozens of other 12/13 year olds regularly and have a pretty good idea how they react to things. In my experience, the great majority of the kids would be scared and as respectful as possible of the police. The few that I know that would not be at all scared (other than those who have police in their family so regularly interact with them socially) are either not reacting because they have had repeated encounters with the police (not good, but not the case here) or who have a reaction that is extremely atypical. As a parent it's reasonable to examine why a child's reaction is atypical. Maybe you should try telling this to the mother. You could do it in a nice way, but suggest his reaction is atypical & she may want to look at the reason. If you work with children a lot she may respect the opinion. But, then maybe not
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 12:51:37 GMT -5
hoops and oped, if you're asking me if it's wrong to know your rights and use them - no, not at all. It's similar to what I'd hope my sons would do.
And again, he wasn't - as far as I know - snippy. So that's not an issue.
I'm reacting to and commenting on his reaction compared to the reaction I think most 12/13 year old boys would have. Even the straight A, Eagle Scouts would mostly be a little flustered after a police chase. This boy puffed up, stated he was an American citizen and had rights and was challenging, IMHO. That fits with how I've seen him react in other situations. If he thinks he can get out of things by acting like an innocent child, he put that demeanor on. If he thinks it's someone who is not important, he makes oddly adult sounding and dismissive statements. This sounds close to the latter and is an extremely concerning reaction - IMHO as a parent - in regards to a police officer who has just chased you down. But I wasn't there, so don't know.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 0:23:11 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 12:52:32 GMT -5
Do a google for me... 'raped by man pretending to be a police officer' .... There were so many links, I didn't know which to post....
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,409
|
Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 12:53:30 GMT -5
Maybe you are right, but I just can't live my life that way. Sorry.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 0:23:11 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 12:54:32 GMT -5
I would be troubled by his reaction. But again, as others have suggested before me, I'm not sure that is necessarily an inate pathology, or just learned behavior that he knows he won't get punished for anything ... I think, based on the history you outlined, that is sounds like predispotion, but his mother is doing him no favors....
I'd stay away from it myself, even if it means losing a friendship...
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,409
|
Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 12:54:52 GMT -5
Why would straight A, Eagle Scouts get involved with a POLICE CHASE? When a bunch of gun weilding policman yell "Stop! Police!" Why the hell are they still running?
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 12:55:51 GMT -5
So, we are believing the words of the mother, who thinks this child didn't do anything wrong, and her neighbor was wrong for calling police when he sees people in his yard with guns, that her son's version of the story that he didn't get snippy with a police officer is accurate? Well if we're not taking the OP as factual, then why not argue that he never even said that to the police. Why not create an alternate reality where he never had a gun at all and the officer physically assaulted him? We can make up alternative stories as to how it went all day, but I don't think you can just assume that all the negatives are true and any positives are false. FWIW it's not even the mother saying it, it's someone giving their version of what the mother said who's giving their version of what the kid said. It might not be true, but maybe none of it is true. I think at some point to have any real discussion we all have to make an assumption that something is either true, or is at least the situation we're discussing.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 0:23:11 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 12:57:50 GMT -5
Live your life how? Cautious? Realistic? ...
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 12:58:02 GMT -5
Why would straight A, Eagle Scouts get involved with a POLICE CHASE? When a bunch of gun weilding policman yell "Stop! Police!" Why the hell are they still running? I was thinking the same thing. You don't accidently end up in a police chase. To end up in a police chase you have to be actively trying to get away.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 0:23:11 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 12:59:20 GMT -5
That would scare me even more though. I guess I can't imagine running away from the police when I was 12, especially when I was obviously doing something I shouldn't. I ran from the police when I was about 7. I was watching my Mom's friends' teenagers pop fireworks. They saw the police car coming down the street and ran in the house. I ran with them. Before our parents could quiz us good about why we bust in the house like that, the officer was knocking on the door. At that point I was more afraid of my Mom than any police officer. That one was minor, but even as I got older I was scared to do anything where I'd have to deal with police, especially because then I'd have to deal with Mom.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:02:42 GMT -5
::This boy puffed up, stated he was an American citizen and had rights and was challenging, IMHO. ::
As opposed to...letting the police "scare him" because the officer thinks it's his place to do that? The police shouldn't even be talking to him without his parent there in the first place. What was he "challenging"? He was demanding to see his lawyer and parent, if he was challenging something he SHOULD have been, because that's what should have been happening. He SHOULD be challenging if the officer was doing something which he shouldn't be. What was he supposed to do? Pretend to break down in tears while asking to speak to his mommy and lawyer?
::Even the straight A, Eagle Scouts would mostly be a little flustered after a police chase.::
Huh? Neither of these things have anything to do with maturity or recognition of your rights.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:03:21 GMT -5
Where di you get the account of hi asking for his rights? From the mother? Could she be embellishing a little because she thinks that a cool response? Maybe he was a bit flustered and also asked for his rights to be respected. Does the mother give a true account of what happened? Primarily from the mother but also a few snippets from neighbors. The snippets were along the lines of gossip and I didn't want to feed the gossip, so didn't engage and have no idea how credible they are. Hard to tell with the mom's account. She tends to tell things that cast Zander in a favorable light and does sometimes perceive things differently (more dramatically) than I do. My impression was that she was proud of him acting like an adult and remembering to ask for his rights. While I'm not opposed to asking for rights, I've seen his "adult" act before and find it oddly creepy. Also, knowing how she tends to cast things in a favorable light, it's reasonable to assume this was a fairly sanitized version. Very hard to tell.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 13:04:24 GMT -5
None of us was there, so it's all speculation as to how the kid reacted. Maybe he did cop an attitude, maybe he didn't, we'll never know for sure.
But his actions, asking for his parent and a lawyer, was exactly what he should do, what any kid should do.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 0:23:11 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:04:53 GMT -5
Also, mid, you are far from the only person on here that is suggesting that the police shouldn't be trusted. I hadn't said it, but a lot of police officers shouldn't be trusted. And I taught my kids accordingly. That doesn't mean I taught them to ask for a lawyer the minute any police officer says a word to them though. Not that I think that's what mid suggested.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:05:43 GMT -5
::My impression was that she was proud of him acting like an adult and remembering to ask for his rights. While I'm not opposed to asking for rights, I've seen his "adult" act before and find it oddly creepy.::
You finding it creepy that a child would act like an adult doesn't make it somehow "wrong" to do so though.
Also, he's at an age where nearly every child is in that "sometimes i'm kind of an adult and sometimes i'm kind of a child still" mode.
|
|
CarolinaKat
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Posts: 6,364
|
Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 5, 2012 13:06:11 GMT -5
I understand that - but the most likely place for an interaction is a traffic stop. I really, really, really, really, really don't want my kids to do something stupid and turn a traffic stop into a huge deal because they think by speeding they are going to be accused of murder. I disagree with the poster that told her daughter to refuse to deal with a male police man and sit patiently while waiting for a female office to show up. A great way to annoy the police and waste a bunch of tax payer dollars is to have her be respectfully militant about only speaking to a female. I think she could turn a 5 minute conversation, possibly ending in a warning into a 30 minute ordeal, most likely ending in a ticket. If they are calling a second car to the scene - they are going to be itching for that revenue. I also think it is weakening the position of women and sending the message that women can't deal with men effectively. I will never tell my daughter that. If she can't handle a traffic stop, she might as well join some fundamentalist group where she isn't allowed to speak. But, people tell their kids all kinds of things, and if my daughter is raped by a police officer, then I will have been wrong. That's in regards to stepping out of a car. I probably wouldn't step out of my car for a male officer in a deserted area either.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:06:41 GMT -5
No and I'm sorry to have given that impression. Let me be clear - I think Zander may have some serious tendencies, but that his parents have done very little to help him and done many things that have actively made him worse or enabled the worst traits to develop fully. I think genes delivered a tough set of circumstances here, but that if the parents worked hard and made some tough choices that Zander could be helped. I'm sad for my friend because she's both ill equipped and emotionally incapable of doing what I think needs to be done and I feel sad for Zander because I can see he may be headed for some serious issues. I'm just trying to keep my kid from being caught in whatever happens. Understand. but if this is truly one of your best friends, I think you owe it to her - and to zander - to sit her down and come clean about your concerns about zander's behaviors, the parental reactions to those, and your fear zander may be a bad influence on Miles. Recommend counseling for zander. Help her understand what behaviors on her/H that might help zander rather than pushing him farther along - and maybe zander and Miles could hang out sometimes under your supervision. Encourage some positive behaviors. if this kid is becoming a train wreck - I think it would be best to try to assist that family rather than watching it unfold over the next decade. I personally would prefer to lose the friendship trying to be helpful, than to sit back and do nothing because it's uncomfortable. You are right and if I had the capability to do this in a way that had a remote chance of success, I would. I don't think I have the tools to have that conversation end any way but badly. Until her divorce is over and she starts to be a little more emotionally secure herself, I'm not sure anyone has a chance of doing it, but I know I don't. She's a caring, nurturer type that was a preschool teacher and thinks of most people as preschool children with sweet, simple natures. I'm Spock. It would be bad.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 13:08:48 GMT -5
Thyme4change does have a point Rukh. If they have to call out another car for a routine traffic stop, your daughter is far less likely to get off with a warning.
I also found it a little strange for a woman to refuse to obey a male officer.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 0:23:11 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:09:23 GMT -5
I think, in the context of everything else you know and has happened, this incident, and the boys apparent handling of it, is a worrisom addition to the information you have about the boy, especially coupled with the mother's decision, once again apparently, to not hold her son responsible for anything.... That is what i'd take from the incident.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:09:42 GMT -5
::That's in regards to stepping out of a car. I probably wouldn't step out of my car for a male officer in a deserted area either. ::
But you'll talk to him...how exactly? Will you turn off the engine?
If we're talking about a deserted area, the fact that you won't willingly step out of your car doesn't really change anything. If we're talking about being raped, I'm not sure I'd trust that the rapist is easily deterred and the smallest of barriers will deter him from doing it, as my safety precaution.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:10:30 GMT -5
I think, in the context of everything else you know and has happened, this inciden, and the boys apparent handling of it, is a worrisom addition to the information you have about the boy, especially coupled with the mother's decision, once again apparently, to not hold her son responsible for anything.... That is what i'd take from the incident. Agreed. Nothing more, nothing less.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 5, 2012 13:11:32 GMT -5
I'm not a parent, so this is a completely serious question:
Why would any parent buy their child an air soft pistol or whatever you call it? I'm not anti-gun. Believe me. I have more weapons in my home than most pawn shops. I know what my weapons are for. What does a child need an air-soft pistol for? What are they supposed to be doing with them?
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:11:33 GMT -5
I guess I don't really understand the idea that him reacting as an adult would is worrisome.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 13:12:07 GMT -5
"I said nothing about refusing to talk to them - I said do not exit the vehicle - to request a female officer. Big difference."
Okay, what about telling your sons not to step out of the car for a female officer?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 0:23:11 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:12:22 GMT -5
I would not turn off the engine. I probably would not stop. I would call 911 and advise them that I was proceeding to a well lighted, populated area and have them convey the message. If I got in trouble, so be it. If i did stop, I would not turn of the engine.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,738
|
Post by raeoflyte on Oct 5, 2012 13:12:38 GMT -5
I think it would probably be normal for a 12 year old kid to ask to have his parents called right away, but asking for a lawyer is odd. 12 year olds don't have lawyers so that part seems snarky to me regardless of the delivery method.
|
|
CarolinaKat
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Posts: 6,364
|
Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 5, 2012 13:14:27 GMT -5
"I said nothing about refusing to talk to them - I said do not exit the vehicle - to request a female officer. Big difference." Okay, what about telling your sons not to step out of the car for a female officer? Probably wouldn't tell them to step out of the car alone either for a single police officer of either gender. About 8 months ago there was a guy here pretendending to be a police officer carjacking people that way.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:14:35 GMT -5
I would not turn off the engine. I probably would not stop. I would call 911 and advise them that I was proceeding to a well lighted, populated area and have them convey the message. If I got in trouble, so be it. If i did stop, I would not turn of the engine. So then it's not just a matter of "don't step out of the car", it's also a matter of "disobey the officer in other ways".
|
|
Formerly SK
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 27, 2011 14:23:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,255
|
Post by Formerly SK on Oct 5, 2012 13:14:41 GMT -5
None of us was there, so it's all speculation as to how the kid reacted. Maybe he did cop an attitude, maybe he didn't, we'll never know for sure. But his actions, asking for his parent and a lawyer, was exactly what he should do, what any kid should do. So would you feel the same way if the kid got in trouble at school and was sent to the principal's office for misbehaving?
|
|