Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 10, 2012 14:16:44 GMT -5
I had to quite volunteering when my paying job demanded more of my time. I also (to be honest) had gotten a bit burned out on hearing how the "rich people" don't do enough for the less fortunate. How many of you have done extensive volunteer work while working full time and still believe those needing help had absolutely no choice in their circumstances the majority of the time? I agree many people are victims. But, I also know people like Apple that had a parent die. Or women leaving an abusive spouse that now have to make it on their own. Shit happens & some people overplay the victim card, but that doesn't change the fact that people end up in bad situations & may need a helping hand. Subsidized daycare for people working & going to school seems like a much better, more productive form of welfare than just TANF or foodstamps. You don't get it for just sitting at home & doing nothing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:17:30 GMT -5
Well it is easier to not try, thats for sure. The world is full of victims. My grandmother went on welfare for two years to get an education after she divorced her abusive husband. She got an education, got a well paying job, and moved herself and three kids into a middle class lifestyle. She later in life bought a home as well. The idea that needing a little help for a short period makes someone a victim is despicable. This is a woman who was on the cutting edge of most heart research, had 4 strokes and was told at 21 she could die at anytime, she lived till 72. Needing a little help for a short time and welfare as a lifestyle choice are two different things. Helping out for a short time is what welfare was intended to do, not to become a lifestyle choice of generation after generation. Jeeze you're all pissed because my mom managed to not go on welfare?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:17:56 GMT -5
The scammers irritate me to no end, but whatever system you design, someone is going to scam it. I still think people should be given a hand up. I am all for a hand UP, but when it turns into them continually looking for a hand OUT - all bets are off.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 10, 2012 14:18:03 GMT -5
I'm not arguing that many people - even the majority - who find themselves in bad financial situations are there through no fault of their own. It seems to usually be a combination of bad choices + bad luck - sometimes mostly bad luck, sometimes mostly bad choices.
Doesn't mean I think they should be cast out of society or forever barred from receiving help.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 10, 2012 14:18:49 GMT -5
Rather I think people took offense to your flip "If you can't afford kids don't have them" comment.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 10, 2012 14:18:52 GMT -5
Who watched you guys in the summer while your mom worked?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 14:19:30 GMT -5
My grandmother went on welfare for two years to get an education after she divorced her abusive husband. She got an education, got a well paying job, and moved herself and three kids into a middle class lifestyle. She later in life bought a home as well. The idea that needing a little help for a short period makes someone a victim is despicable. This is a woman who was on the cutting edge of most heart research, had 4 strokes and was told at 21 she could die at anytime, she lived till 72. Needing a little help for a short time and welfare as a lifestyle choice are two different things. Helping out for a short time is what welfare was intended to do, not to become a lifestyle choice of generation after generation. Jeeze you're all pissed because my mom managed to not go on welfare? No, we're pissed because you said that because your mom managed to do it without welfare so anyone else should be able to do it too. You also inferred that anyone who needed temporary help is a victim. I loathe scammers, but I'm not willing to cut off the peopel that actually do need help.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 14:20:11 GMT -5
Who watched you guys in the summer while your mom worked?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 14:20:18 GMT -5
You don't get it for just sitting at home & doing nothing. Apparently in Illinois you do.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 14:21:00 GMT -5
You don't get it for just sitting at home & doing nothing. Apparently in Illinois you do. apparently Illinois is a special place.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:22:33 GMT -5
My grandmother went on welfare for two years to get an education after she divorced her abusive husband. She got an education, got a well paying job, and moved herself and three kids into a middle class lifestyle. She later in life bought a home as well. The idea that needing a little help for a short period makes someone a victim is despicable. This is a woman who was on the cutting edge of most heart research, had 4 strokes and was told at 21 she could die at anytime, she lived till 72. Needing a little help for a short time and welfare as a lifestyle choice are two different things. Helping out for a short time is what welfare was intended to do, not to become a lifestyle choice of generation after generation. Jeeze you're all pissed because my mom managed to not go on welfare? No, I am pissed because as I said "The idea that needing a little help for a short period makes someone a victim is despicable." My grandmother was not a victim for needing help and that is what your post alluded by saying "Well it is easier to not try, thats for sure. The world is full of victims." Needing short term help in the form of welfare is not being a victim.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:23:16 GMT -5
You don't get it for just sitting at home & doing nothing. Apparently in Illinois you do. apparently Illinois is a special place. Well that is what happens when you let the states decide, not the feds. ETA: I went to Illinois' daycare assistance problem and not all daycares are assistance eligible, unlike what another poster stated.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 14:25:55 GMT -5
Well that is what happens when you let the states decide, not the feds.FREE MARKET!
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 10, 2012 14:26:31 GMT -5
Who watched you guys in the summer while your mom worked? I'm sure a lovely neighbor SAHM watched them for free all summer. Of course, SAHM neighbors will never beat the crap out of your child or be negligent because they are all perfect & love to do favors for others.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 10, 2012 14:30:27 GMT -5
I highly doubt it. I'm thinking that she's dodging the question because they stayed home alone while mom worked in the summer. I'm sure some nice neighbor lady promised to keep an eye out, or check on them once in a while, or whatever, but they stayed home alone. Which is currently illegal for kids that age, and CPS can take them from you if they find out. But, she wasn't on welfare and nobody died, so it's all good I guess. Those damn welfare leeches just need to start breaking the law to get ahead like Apple's mom probably did.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 14:31:55 GMT -5
OT, but did anything come out of CPS's investigation of your former neighbors Angel?
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jaya3300
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Post by jaya3300 on Sept 10, 2012 14:33:23 GMT -5
1. Do you consider the state subsidizing daycare, welfare?
yes, it's welfare. Welfare is more than just AFDC, Food Stamps, and Medicaid. Other forms of "welfare" not commonly discussed are farm subsidies, student interest deduction, mortgage interest deduction, bail outs, corporate tax cuts, and etc.
2. Is it "better" than other forms?
Welfare is welfare. But at least they're trying to better their lives.
3. Also, does the fact that you can use a daycare FSA for many employers affect anyone's opinion?
Most low paying jobs offer no benefits (health, dental, retirement, and FSA)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:38:09 GMT -5
Needing a little help for a short time and welfare as a lifestyle choice are two different things. Helping out for a short time is what welfare was intended to do, not to become a lifestyle choice of generation after generation. Jeeze you're all pissed because my mom managed to not go on welfare? No, we're pissed because you said that because your mom managed to do it without welfare so anyone else should be able to do it too. You also inferred that anyone who needed temporary help is a victim. I loathe scammers, but I'm not willing to cut off the peopel that actually do need help. I get that and my point was that it would have been easier for my mom to go on welfare and maybe, just maybe that is a problem? I'm sure there are people who need help, get assistance until they get their feet back on solid financial ground and then get off welfare (as it was intened) but those peope are few and far between as it would appear that welfare has become a lifestyle choice for generations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:40:27 GMT -5
No, we're pissed because you said that because your mom managed to do it without welfare so anyone else should be able to do it too. You also inferred that anyone who needed temporary help is a victim. I loathe scammers, but I'm not willing to cut off the peopel that actually do need help. I get that and my point was that it would have been easier for my mom to go on welfare and maybe, just maybe that is a problem? I'm sure there are people who need help, get assistance until they get their feet back on solid financial ground and then get off welfare (as it was intened) but those peope are few and far between as it would appear that welfare has become a lifestyle choice for generations.Do you have any evidence to back that statement up or is it just your opinion?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 10, 2012 14:41:23 GMT -5
I do like that definition of welfare. 1, because it's true, and 2, because it sure shuts up all the people who bitch about 'their tax dollars' subsidizing others. (Although most will argue that the above examples aren't welfare and therefore don't count.) I wonder if there are stats on the proportion of the US population that claims at least one tax credit/subsidy? It just seems a little unbalanced - if a state provides Person A with a $2K daycare subsidy, and Person B with a $2K tax credit for installing solar panels, we rip Person A a new one and tell Person B they are a great YM-er for reducing their taxable income.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:43:54 GMT -5
I'm sure a lovely neighbor SAHM watched them for free all summer. Of course, SAHM neighbors will never beat the crap out of your child or be negligent because they are all perfect & love to do favors for others. Ya cuz that never happens at daycare. In the summer my mom had 2 weeks holliday and for the remainder (6 weeks)we were dropped off at my grandmothers or my aunts sometimes we went to visit other family members for a week at a time. Sometimes we had a babysitter come in and stay as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:44:02 GMT -5
I do like that definition of welfare. 1, because it's true, and 2, because it sure shuts up all the people who bitch about 'their tax dollars' subsidizing others. (Although most will argue that the above examples aren't welfare and therefore don't count.) I wonder if there are stats on the proportion of the US population that claims at least one tax credit/subsidy? It just seems a little unbalanced - if a state provides Person A with a $2K daycare subsidy, and Person B with a $2K tax credit for installing solar panels, we rip Person A a new one and tell Person B they are a great YM-er for reducing their taxable income. Everyone uses deductions. If you do not get the mortgage interest deduction, you take the standard deduction. Everyone has personal exemptions as well.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 14:44:14 GMT -5
Do you have any evidence to back that statement up
Does being at the supermarket, spying in people's carts to see what they are buying, seeing someone use what I assume was an EBT card and then following them out into the parking lot to see them loading their groceries in a raised escalade count as evidence?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 10, 2012 14:47:06 GMT -5
I would also add that in some states (such as yes, IL) if you are already on welfare then having 1 or 2 more kids costs you almost nothing but increases your EITC.
In IL, kids under the poverty line are covered by medicaid (which in our state also covers dental). They get SNAP, FA, daycare at the cost of a few dollars per month, head start (daycare for ages before kindergarden) free or heavily subsidized participation in all park district programs, free school lunches and breakfasts and the education is provided for.
The only thing the parents have to cover is clothing (I'm assuming housing is fixed). So in our state, there is little to no cost to parents receiving aid when they have more children. Sorry, bash me if you want - but I don't think it's right to expect to expect people paying their own way to subsidize large families for those who can't pay their own way.
Before you jump all over me, yes of course it is different if your situation changes AFTER you have children, but it that the exception or the rule?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 10, 2012 14:47:18 GMT -5
Oh, so she relied on the kindness of family which is fine. But anyone who relies on the kindness of strangers, is a victim and a leech. Makes sense. See, I don't actually have a problem with my tax dollars going to make sure poor kids get an education, somewhat stable home life, etc. I'm happy to pay for that. The real waste in government is our extremely bloated military.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 14:47:20 GMT -5
I'm sure a lovely neighbor SAHM watched them for free all summer. Of course, SAHM neighbors will never beat the crap out of your child or be negligent because they are all perfect & love to do favors for others. Ya cuz that never happens at daycare.In the summer my mom had 2 weeks holliday and for the remainder (6 weeks)we were dropped off at my grandmothers or my aunts sometimes we went to visit other family members for a week at a time. Sometimes we had a babysitter come in and stay as well. It is less likely to happen because more than one adult is there and they have to be background checked. And why is it better to get help from relatives than the government? Is that not still relying on others?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 10, 2012 14:48:31 GMT -5
I don't have data on that. Do you?
I'm not a parent BUT I've heard that there are usually more costs associated with children than food + medical care + daycare + clothing. I dunno though. Maybe some parents can weigh in?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 14:49:10 GMT -5
And why is it better to get help from relatives than the government? Is that not still relying on others? Because if your family really loves you, that is what they do for you. Using family is frugal.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Sept 10, 2012 14:51:48 GMT -5
Ya cuz that never happens at daycare.In the summer my mom had 2 weeks holliday and for the remainder (6 weeks)we were dropped off at my grandmothers or my aunts sometimes we went to visit other family members for a week at a time. Sometimes we had a babysitter come in and stay as well. It is less likely to happen because more than one adult is there and they have to be background checked. And why is it better to get help from relatives than the government? Is that not still relying on others? Ya know gin, family and blood and all....... Its ok to be kind to family members but to anyone not related by blood....suck the blood of that leech!!!!! Welfare = Moochers per some people.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Sept 10, 2012 14:53:54 GMT -5
I'm sure a lovely neighbor SAHM watched them for free all summer. Of course, SAHM neighbors will never beat the crap out of your child or be negligent because they are all perfect & love to do favors for others. I used to watch for free friends of my kids during the Summer and I never was abusive to any of them. I don't understand why this would seem so odd. Because thats whats exactly happened to Angel's children. Just because YOU didn't do it doesn''t mean there aren't abusers anywhere.
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