suesinfl
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Post by suesinfl on Aug 15, 2012 12:19:24 GMT -5
I know that I need to see a lawyer/estate planner, but I thought I’d ask my questions here first. I know that if something were to happen to me my DD(14) and DS (10) will go live with their father and he will collect Social Security survivor benefits for the kids, but what do I need in place to make sure that my kids only have access to my savings, life insurance, proceeds of the sale of my house, etc. I don’t trust my ex with the items listed above, because he will not use it for what I want, i.e. college, a start in their lives, etc.
My oldest DD (25) is the beneficiary on my life insurance and knows that it is to be split 3 ways, but what type of paperwork do I need to make sure that the ex cannot use the younger kids’ portion for his own use?
A little history: divorced for 7 yrs., he’s been unemployed for 18 mos. due to his stupidity so he has no DL, no vehicle and relies on his current wife for everything. He is now about $10,000 behind on child support and his portion of their medical bills.
Sorry if this is long/convoluted.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2012 12:21:39 GMT -5
Make your daughter the trustee for the younger kids? Or someone else you trust? There has to be an adult who holds the in trust for your kids.
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Aug 15, 2012 12:23:49 GMT -5
" but what do I need in place to make sure that my kids only have access to my savings, life insurance, proceeds of the sale of my house, etc"
You can have a "trust" established under your Will (or otherwise) that states your estate goes to "trust ABC" for the benefit of your children... any good estate and trust attorney can draft the docuemnt in a way that will protect the assets from your ex.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 15, 2012 12:31:12 GMT -5
...:::"My oldest DD (25) is the beneficiary on my life insurance and knows that it is to be split 3 ways, but what type of paperwork do I need to make sure that the ex cannot use the younger kids� portion for his own use?":::...
This part stuck out to me. Is it not possible to list the kids themselves on the life insurance? I only ask because we've had many threads about situations like this where the person who "knew what to do" had a change of heart when all that cash was in his/her possession.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 15, 2012 12:33:37 GMT -5
...:::"My oldest DD (25) is the beneficiary on my life insurance and knows that it is to be split 3 ways, but what type of paperwork do I need to make sure that the ex cannot use the younger kids� portion for his own use?":::... This part stuck out to me. Is it not possible to list the kids themselves on the life insurance? I only ask because we've had many threads about situations like this where the person who "knew what to do" had a change of heart when all that cash was in his/her possession. If you list minor kids as teh beneficiary of life insurance, a guardian of the property must be appointed so they can get the proceeds. Usually, it's the other parent, which in this case, is a bad idea. She can make the insurance payable to "her estate" and it will go in the trust established in her will. But then the life insurance will be subject to creditor claims. There's a downfall either way you do it.
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reader79
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Post by reader79 on Aug 15, 2012 12:35:46 GMT -5
I would worry that your oldest daughter would face tax implications if she were to 'give' the money to her siblings. Is there a reason why you can't direct the entire amount to a trust, and have her in charge of that? Would your ex let her take custody of them, or would that be a fight over the SS benefits?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Aug 15, 2012 12:37:13 GMT -5
...:::"My oldest DD (25) is the beneficiary on my life insurance and knows that it is to be split 3 ways, but what type of paperwork do I need to make sure that the ex cannot use the younger kids� portion for his own use?":::... This part stuck out to me. Is it not possible to list the kids themselves on the life insurance? I only ask because we've had many threads about situations like this where the person who "knew what to do" had a change of heart when all that cash was in his/her possession. WWBG this struck me also because I used to be a life insurance producer and once someone dies there is nothing legally you can do to make the beneficiary spend the money a particular way if it is left to them. Not to say that most people wouldn't do what the deceased wanted but I know a minor girl right now whose older sister was left all the property and life insurance with the understanding that she would take care of her younger sister. Well her and her BF didn't feel like it so they kicked little sister out to fend for herself. Putting the minor childrens portion of the life insurance in a trust seem a much safer alternative to me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 15, 2012 12:47:11 GMT -5
This just doesn't feel right to me. If it legally becomes her money - aren't there repercussions about giving it away?
Anyway, I would put all your assets into a trust that paid the Dad a little bit of money until the kids graduate from high school, and then pays out some reasonable amount for college, and anything that is left over will be given to them upon college graduation, or something like that.
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suesinfl
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Post by suesinfl on Aug 15, 2012 13:11:42 GMT -5
thank you for your replies. This is why I put it here to make sure I ask the correct questions when I set up my Will.
Swamp:
If you list minor kids as teh beneficiary of life insurance, a guardian of the property must be appointed so they can get the proceeds. [b]Usually, it's the other parent, which in this case, is a bad idea.[/b] She can make the insurance payable to "her estate" and it will go in the trust established in her will. But then the life insurance will be subject to creditor claims. There's a downfall either way you do it
The same thing I'm thinking.
Other than $47,000 on the mortgage, $2,000 on the car, and about $300 in medical/dental bills, I have no other debt. I know that the car is worth more than the amount listed above, so they could sell it, the house at this time would sell at more than the amount above and I hope to have the medical/dental bill will be payed in a couple of months.
Reader79: [codeI would worry that your oldest daughter would face tax implications if she were to 'give' the money to her siblings. Is there a reason why you can't direct the entire amount to a trust, and have her in charge of that? Would your ex let her take custody of them, or would that be a fight over the SS benefits?][/code]
Taxes are another thing that I thought about. My oldest DD would take the kids in a heartbeat, but there would be a battle.
973beachbum, I trust my oldest DD to handle things the way that I want.
Thyme:
Anyway, I would put all your assets into a trust that paid the Dad a little bit of money until the kids graduate from high school, and then pays out some reasonable amount for college, and anything that is left over will be given to them upon college graduation, or something like that.
This is what I was thinking as far as when they go to college or when they reach a certain age. But, I'm afraid that pay the father some of the money until then would not be "used" for them, it would be used for his own devices.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 15, 2012 13:12:24 GMT -5
If you leave to oldest DD, it's hers and she doesn't have to give it to the kids. Leave it to your estate or set up a trust for all the kids with oldest DD as Trustee.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 15, 2012 13:15:40 GMT -5
At some point you have to trust him. If he is going to give them a home and groceries, then you should give him some money, and let him deal with the details. It isn't like you have to give him a million dollars a year or anything - just a little bit. If you really don't trust him at all to provide the basics for your kids, then you need to do something so he doesn't get custody at all.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 15, 2012 13:16:15 GMT -5
Is bad enough that your SS would be used to support your ex as well but you can't control that. You can and should control the rest. The trust is the easiest way and I'd put the life insurance policy in the trust as well. Your non-minor child and someone else that you trust can be co-trustees. I totally disinherited my children until they came of age just for that reason. There's no law saying you have to leave your kids anything so I was home free. Once the first one hit 18, he became partial beneficiary then she hit 18 and I could fix my will the way I wanted it fixed.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 15, 2012 13:16:53 GMT -5
At some point you have to trust him. If he is going to give them a home and groceries, then you should give him some money, and let him deal with the details. It isn't like you have to give him a million dollars a year or anything - just a little bit. If you really don't trust him at all to provide the basics for your kids, then you need to do something so he doesn't get custody at all. He'll get the social security survivor's benefits to cover the costs of raising them. The trustee will also have the option of giving him money for the kids' care.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2012 13:17:35 GMT -5
It's possible to have one person in charge of the kids and another in charge of doling out the money for their care. When I divorced, I wrote up a new Will and a Trust agreement. My brother and SIL would get DS (they agreed to that) but another brother, a CPA with more interest in investing, would manage the money. In my case, I suspect Brother #1 wouldn't have asked Brother #2 for a dime from the trust till DS went away to college- that's just the way he is. Do you know a responsible adult who could deal with your Ex's request for funds and make sure it went to support your children?
Hopefully you'll end up in the same situation I am now- a good plan, but the kids grow to adulthood without needing it.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 15, 2012 13:22:12 GMT -5
Yes - but if you are spelling out your wishes, you are going to have to figure out what that means to you.
But sure, you can just not give your ex a single dime, and your kids will know they didn't have stuff when they were young because you didn't trust their father, and then they will get a huge ball of money when they are 18 or 25 or 32 or whatever. Personally, I think that would be shitty. I would rather leave money to the kids' father and have him piss it away and them think HE was the asshole than not provide for my kids at all and have them think that I was the asshole.
I would most definitely set aside money for college.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 15, 2012 13:26:03 GMT -5
Yes - but if you are spelling out your wishes, you are going to have to figure out what that means to you. But sure, you can just not give your ex a single dime, and your kids will know they didn't have stuff when they were young because you didn't trust their father, and then they will get a huge ball of money when they are 18 or 25 or 32 or whatever. Personally, I think that would be shitty. I would rather leave money to the kids' father and have him piss it away and them think HE was the asshole than not provide for my kids at all and have them think that I was the asshole. I would most definitely set aside money for college. The way our testamentary trusts are drafted, the trustee has the option of making distributions to the minor children for things taht benefit the kids. So, the trustee can buy the kid a car when the kid gets her license, pay for college buy her clothes, pay for vacation, or withhold money if she sees fit.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Aug 15, 2012 13:32:17 GMT -5
Sue, are all three of the kids to inherit a portion of your estate? Would you put all three kids inheritance into the trust, or just the inheritance of the younger two?
Maybe one of the attorneys will answer, but I was under the impression that a person couldn't be the trustee for a trust and a beneficiary of that same trust. Is that correct? Would any such rule vary from state to state?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 15, 2012 13:33:33 GMT -5
Yes, you can be a trustee and a beneficiary. I am not ruling on the wiseness of the decision.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 15, 2012 14:10:57 GMT -5
Look, I never made much money and my SS benefits to a surviving child would have been almost 800 a month. Now times that by two and you have a nice chunk of change for the ex to blow. No way would I leave a dime to an ex for the care of my kids. He will get plenty. I'd rather the kids knew their father was a stealing jerk that I didn't trust than have him get a dime of their/my money intended for them. You can't stop the govt from giving him the SS but you can make sure he doesn't get anything else and should. You don't have to give the kids the whole pot at 18 or 21, either. DD and DS have to be 30 before they inherit.
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suesinfl
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Post by suesinfl on Aug 15, 2012 14:16:12 GMT -5
Yes - but if you are spelling out your wishes, you are going to have to figure out what that means to you. But sure, you can just not give your ex a single dime, and your kids will know they didn't have stuff when they were young because you didn't trust their father, and then they will get a huge ball of money when they are 18 or 25 or 32 or whatever. Personally, I think that would be shitty. I would rather leave money to the kids' father and have him piss it away and them think HE was the asshole than not provide for my kids at all and have them think that I was the asshole. I would most definitely set aside money for college. Thyme, they love their father, but don't like him, more so DD 2, but DS doesn't like spending time with him either. They already know that because of the lack CS, things are very tight. He'll get the social security survivor's benefits to cover the costs of raising them.
The trustee will also have the option of giving him money for the kids' care. [The way our testamentary trusts are drafted, the trustee has the option of making distributions to the minor children for things taht benefit the kids. So, the trustee can buy the kid a car when the kid gets her license, pay for college buy her clothes, pay for vacation, or withhold money if she sees fit./code] [img src="http://forums.clubrsx.com/images/smilies/yeahthat.gif"]
This is what I want. I just need to make sure that I have documents that state this.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 15, 2012 14:26:38 GMT -5
You aren't the first to do this. Get a good lawyer if you don't have one. If I didn't have a great one, I'd ask on here. Mine is in Clearwater and he has guided me every step of the way since the divorce. He is a GODSEND.
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suesinfl
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Post by suesinfl on Aug 15, 2012 14:45:01 GMT -5
Zib, right now I don't have a lawyer, but am looking. Not to change the subject, but last week after listening to the kids argue over something stupid, I sent them to each others room for punishment. You should have seen the look on my daughters face! It was priceless. So far so good. I don't think it will happen again.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 15, 2012 15:18:44 GMT -5
Trust me, after they wipe themselves off the floor when they CORRECT you and you tell them they heard you CORRECTLY, it rarely happens again. I just got sick of the endless bickering so I got desperate.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 15, 2012 15:19:29 GMT -5
Not sure where you are in Florida but my guy would know someone good that you could trust. Good lawyers know who else is good and who to stay away from.
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sherron
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Post by sherron on Aug 15, 2012 18:09:25 GMT -5
Swamp is right, a testamentary trust is what you're looking for. What I ended up doing was scheduling a consult with a lawyer and I brought my list of questions. About an hour later, he had explained to me what I needed to do to draw up my own, and he agreed to look it over after I'm done to make sure all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed, for a portion of what it would have cost me to have him do the whole thing. You mention things are tight, so it sounds like you don't have much, but enough to want to keep your ex from blowing it unwisely. I can relate to that lol. As far as money to help care for the kids in the event of your death... check your social security statement to see how much your ex would receive. I am very okay with the fact that none of my money goes to my ex for my son's care, considering that my ex will get more in survivor benefits than his court ordered support has ever been. I didn't sacrifice and save for my ex to blow it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 15, 2012 18:22:10 GMT -5
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 15, 2012 18:59:54 GMT -5
Just a note: The Trustee should not be a beneficiary of the trust -- it would be conflict of interest for them to convey funds to themselves. I'm the Trustee for my aunt and uncle's estate, and the beneficiary is my disabled cousin (their adult child). However, I'm next in line as the beneficiary if my cousin passes away in an untimely manner (not likely, he's 16 years younger than me). So if something happens to him I'm in conflict/in trouble?
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suesinfl
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Post by suesinfl on Aug 16, 2012 2:12:52 GMT -5
Sherron, are you my cosmic twin? Your last post is exactly what I am talking about. I don't have much, but want to make sure that what I do leave goes to my kids and not to the ex.
Zib, if you wouldn't mind PM me with you contact info.
I also found out this week when trying to refinance my mortgage to a lower %, that I have a $17,000 lien on the house from his student loan from the late 80's that he never told me about. This was about 15 years before I knew him and he lived in another state at the time. He has never been on the mortgage, but because of FL laws, when I refinanced for a lower rate when we were married, I had to add him to the title. I guess that his current wife will be shocked when/if it gets tacked on to her property, according to the real estate company that I am working with to get him off the deed.
I am really thankful for everyone who has posted so that I at least i know what I need to do/expect when I meet with a lawyer.
It's no wonder why I have very little trust of anyone.....
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Aug 16, 2012 7:06:42 GMT -5
I haven't read all of the responses but most of them are close to the advice I was given by my attorney when I had my will drawn up in 2003 (children were 14 and 11 at that time).
At that time, me and my Ex weren't getting along and his relationship with our children was a bit rocky too. My will stated that I wanted my mother to be made their guardian. My attorney told me this could be done but if my Ex fought it, the court would most like side with him. To protect anything they would have received from life insurance and my 401k, I stated that a trust was to be set up to be administered by my mother or sister and distributed when they each reached the age of 23. To me this was a good age because by that point they would be more inclined to stand up to any demands he may have made for "help" or pay back. As for their support and college expenses, I knew he'd draw a decent amount from SS (more than he was ordered to pay me in CS) and if they really wanted to go to college, they could pay for it with grants, loans, or by working their way through.
Sounds harsh but my main goal was to keep my hard earned money and any money due them out of the Ex's irresponsible hands. Now its all mute since they're all grown and only DD2 is under 23. I need have a new will drawn up so DGD and any future grandchildren are included but I'm in no rush since I've decided to seek other employment and will possibly be relocating for the new job.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2012 7:17:58 GMT -5
I also found out this week when trying to refinance my mortgage to a lower %, that I have a $17,000 lien on the house from his student loan from the late 80's that he never told me about. <snip>He has never been on the mortgage, but because of FL laws, when I refinanced for a lower rate when we were married, I had to add him to the title. Another lovely example of the way the government punishes people for being married. No wonder many people don't. Have you thought of naming someone other than your Ex as guardian for your kids, as michelyn did? I did and my attorney (who really didn't like my Ex) put in very emphatic language as to why the Ex wasn't an appropriate guardian- basically failure to provide a dime of support for DS during the last 5 years of the marriage and after the separation). In my case, the Ex wouldn't have fought it- he really wasn't equipped to take care of DS anyway.
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