Just how much should an organization accomodate?

[justme]

And if it's $50/hr like they said, that $20,000 means they didn't do a whole lot. When I was in GS we camped 2-3 times a year, and I would think that'd be at least $2,500 a camping trip. The trips alone would far exceed $20k.

[justme]

Aug 2, 2012 14:26:00 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

The simple solution would have been to start a merit badge, or GS equivalent for that, in sign language. No problem!

There is. But 12 year olds aren't going to become fluent in ASL from one merit badge and probably would only learn a few phrases/words.

[Deleted]

Aug 2, 2012 14:26:00 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

The simple solution would have been to start a merit badge, or GS equivalent for that, in sign language. No problem!

While I like the idea of a ASL merit badge, the mom is demanding accomodations via ADA. ADA specifies that the interpreter would have to be certified.

It is the same for doctor's offices. If they have a patient who demands an interpreter, they have to provide (and pay for) a certified interpreter. It makes no difference if the patient's spouse or child could interpret for them.

[gs11rmb]

Aug 2, 2012 14:30:54 GMT -5 @txsbbtc said:

Aug 2, 2012 14:26:00 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

The simple solution would have been to start a merit badge, or GS equivalent for that, in sign language. No problem!

While I like the idea of a ASL merit badge, the mom is demanding accomodations via ADA. ADA specifies that the interpreter would have to be certified.

It is the same for doctor's offices. If they have a patient who demands an interpreter, they have to provide (and pay for) a certified interpreter. It makes no difference if the patient's spouse or child could interpret for them.

I am much more sympathetic to interpreters being provided in medical situations. I know I wouldn't want my husband or daughter with me every time I have to go to the gynecologist!

[thyme4change]

So here is the actual filing. As I expected, the lawyers are all advocacy groups - so Mom isn't paying for any lawyers. These groups have likely been salivating to get a "headline case" in the news. I suspect that she has been encouraged by these groups to keep fighting for it.

It does say that the girl had trouble hearing "in large groups" - which I understand. I have a friend who is hard of hearing, and we can communicate via her hearing aid, etc, but she won't come to parties at my house, and we have to stay where it is light because she can't read my lips if we are (say) outside in the evening or something. We all went to a wedding together, and once the DJ cranked up the music, the only person she could communicate with was her husband who knows sign. So, if this gal is in that situation - maybe she would need a little assistance that she doesn't need at home. That said...her family should be willing to split the cost 50/50. I still think this is a bad law.

www.equipforequality.org/resourcecenter/Runnion_Complaint_08012012.pdf

[Deleted]

Nobody can "make" a private organization run. If people simply quit or the organization has no money, that is the end of it.

[thyme4change]

Here is a blurb I found, apparantly written by the Mom. This specifically calls out the daughter as Hard of Hearing vs. the court document that states she is deaf. My experince - those are very different things in that community, and you don't care an HOH person "deaf" without getting an earful ( ). So, I'm sure all the court documents will explore just how deaf you have to be to be deaf.

Parent Facilitator: Edie M. Runnion
Letter of introduction to send to parents:

My Name is Edie M. Runnion and I am a mother of four children. My oldest is 14 year old 8th grader Katie, Kevin is a 12 year old, 6th grader, Megan is a 12 year old, 6th grader (Kevin & Megan are twins) and Joey is 9 years old, 3rd grader. I have been married to my husband Vince since 1993.

My daughter Megan is hard of hearing and was born with microtia/artresia. Microtia is an incompletely formed ear. Artresia is the closing or absence of an ear canal in the middle ear.

I am very interested in getting to know your family and to increase meaningful parent involvement in the education of your child who is deaf or hard of hearing. My goal is to listen to your needs and hopefully provide you with helpful information and services.

Deafness is considered a low incidence disability because generally does not exceed 1% of the school-aged population at any given time. The relative rarity of students with these disabilities poses significant challenges for schools and their families.

One of my challenges to having a child who is hearing of hearing is lack of opportunities for social interactions with other children who are deaf or hard of hearing (D/HOH). Based on where you live and how large your school district their might not be many other children who are D/HOH in your area. It is difficult to meet other parents who can understand or relate to your situation. Based on your child’s personality and hearing loss developing meaningful relationships and friendships can be challenging.

The most important thing that you need to know about me is that I am a parent just like you and everyday is a new learning experience. The decision that I make for my daughter and my family is what is best for us at this time and does not mean it is best for another family. I am not here to tell you what is best for your child because I don’t know and it is not my role as a parent facilitator.

My daughter is 12 years old and I still get unsolicited advice on what is best for my daughter from someone who doesn’t know her or my family. If you ask me what I’ve done in a similar situation, I’ll tell you but I will also let you know that it was a decision that I made based on the information that I knew at the time. One of the things that I personally learned about raising a child who is D/HOH (or any child) is a decision that I made yesterday might not be the decision that I would make today. As we get new information and as are child grows older, decisions will be different and to keep an open mind and be flexible in your decision making.

I look forward to getting to know each of you and also be able to learn from you.

Edie M. Runnion

[formerroomate99]

If the mother doesn't feel the need to learn sign language, and the girl can't hear when there is background noise, then how on earth will she communicate with her daughter when she takes her daugther to a crowded mall, movie or anywhere else where there is noise?

[justme]

Didn't the article say 6 children?

[Deleted]

My son has celiacs and i didn't go around demanding that every place accomodate his diet. Even at school, i purchased gluten free foods and they prepared it for him, but i still paid the full lunch price. Everybody wants a freebie nowadays.

[thyme4change]

Didn't the article say 6 children?

I believe it said "Family of 6"

[Deleted]

No, the article said family of 6. Interesting that the daughter is diagnosed with atresia/microtia. It is possible that her hearing problem is purely conductive (meaning it could be fixed with surgery or a bone anchored hearing aid) as opposed to hearing loss due to nerve damage.

[justme]

Ah yes, it was in the comments that some people said 6 kids.

[The Captain]

www.ada.gov/q&aeng02.htm

QUOTE:
Barriers to employment, transportation, public accommodations, public services, and telecommunications have imposed staggering economic and social costs on American society and have undermined our well-intentioned efforts to educate, rehabilitate, and employ individuals with disabilities. By breaking down these barriers, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) will enable society to benefit from the skills and talents of individuals with disabilities, will allow us all to gain from their increased purchasing power and ability to use it, and will lead to fuller, more productive lives for all Americans.

The Americans with Disabilities Act gives civil rights protections to individuals with disabilities similar to those provided to individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, age, and religion. It guarantees equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, State and local government services, and telecommunications."

NOTE: Nowhere does it state private organizations have to accommodate.

So why in the hell are the "advocacy" groups allowed to file law suites and suck up resources. This is all about bullying!

[thyme4change]

The court filing had the assets of the National Girl Scouts group - so could be a money grab. I think we have several people involved, trying to several things out of it. As I said - this is a publicity boon for advocacy groups like this. This is what they live for. I believe they created this situation, and are now seizing the opportunity.

[Deleted]

If the complaint is correct and the Girl Scouts take significant public money from the government such as the state of Illinois, then the rules regarding public accommodation could apply. Let's say that a museum gets 40% of its funding from federal and state grants but operates as a private foundation. Does that museum need wheel chair ramps to comply with the ADA? It is not so cut and dry when an organization wants to take government money. I don't agree with the suit and no one can make volunteers run a girl scout troop so I don't know what they expect to gain. I doubt that the Much lawyers are getting paid - it is most likely a pro bono case and the lawyers at the other organizations won't get money personally if there were any damages found. While no one likes these types of cases, if the laws were written more clearly, these types of cases would be easier to get rid of.

[shanendoah]

Sadly, it is not uncommon for parents of hard of hearing children (or even some fully deaf children) not to learn ASL.
A girl I grew up with has twin girls, one of whom is deaf. She does have a cochlear implant, which helps her hear some things, but not all things, and background noise can definitely be a problem.
My friend DOES know ASL and sends her daughter to a school for the deaf. One day, in a crowded hallway at school (and even at a school for the deaf, hallways are noisy) she was having a conversation with her daughter in ASL. One of her daughter's friends saw them and was very surprised that my friend new ASL because her mother didn't, and she hadn't seen other parents at the school communicate in ASL, either. This was when the girl was in first or second grade.

I think accomodating disabled kids in "normal" activities is a tricky situation. If I had a deaf daughter who wanted to join Girl Scouts, I certainly wouldn't want to tell her- You can't, you're deaf. And how many of us have an extra $20k lying around to pay for the interpreter ourselves? Especially if you have a child with medical needs.
The girl almost certainly didn't seem interested in the interpreter because she hates seeming different from the other girls- having the interpreter sets her apart, and what tween girls wants to be different? That CHILD's wish to do things differrently does not mean that that is the best thing for the child. I think all parents can agree with that.

At the same time, I also don't think that a private organization, such as the Girl Scouts, should be forced to pay for extensive accomodations. It seemed the original accomodation of one meeting once a month with a paid for interpreter was an attempt to compromise.
The problem was, I'm guessing, many felt that limited what their non-disable daughters could do. And that then became a power play between different parents. One parent who felt her daughter shouldn't be held back because of a disability, and many other mothers who thought their daughters shouldn't be held back because of someone else's disability.
So the question is, does the good of the many always outway the good of the few? I personally find it to be a case by case basis. I'll bet, if the parents could have kept their emotions under control, a compromise could have been reached. The girl who was deaf could be made to understand that she couldn't do everything the scout troop did, and yes, that is partially due to her disability, but then again, lots of girls can't do everything their girl scout troop does due to health (asthma) or family financial reasons. However, the other girls in her troop could have been taught an important lesson about including people who are different from you, and finding more activities they could all take part in.
But, not surprisingly, the parents, the supposed adults in the situation, likely on both sides, couldn't see past what was best for their individual daughters to what would be best for the entire troop.


medical interpreters: You never want a family member interpreting for a patient. While doctors highly suspect that this will cause the patient to possibly edit out important information they can't prove that. What has been proven, in multiple studies, is that the family member who does the interpreting will selectivly edit both what the patient is trying to tell the doctor and what the doctor is telling the patient. When a family member is doing the interpreting, a doctor can not be certain they are getting the whole story, nor that their recommendations are being fully passed on to the patient.
And it is not the medical office that pays for the interpreter, it is the patient's insurance.

[happyhoix]

I don't have a deaf child (or with any disabilities), but if I did, I would be spending a lot of time and effort helping my kid learn how to get along in the outside world. In this case, the hearing world.

For this kid to have a regular social life, she will want to be able to go to college, to church, to the mall, to parties, to camp, etc. Unless you restrict her to special schools and special camps only for deaf people, she will be having to interact with hearing people every day of her life. Wouldn't it be better to teach her coping strategies that help her adapt rather than slap a lawsuit on anyone who doesn't bend over backwards to provide her with a high dollar interpreter?

For instance, if she reads lips, tell her to make sure, when the scout leader is explaining something to the group, that she stands up front where she gets a good view of her face. Maybe ask the scout leader to write out directions for critical tasks for her. Ask one of the other girls to be her 'hearing buddy' to make sure the girl gets all the important info so she knows what's going on. All these things will help her anytime she has to fit into a new social situation. Keeping a lawyer on call will make it so the poor kid has no friends and no social groups to hang out with at all.

I wonder though how much the mom really had to do with this - sounds like an advocacy group has seized this and run away with it.

[Abby Normal]

Aug 2, 2012 16:26:56 GMT -5 @marinauser said:

Let's say that a museum gets 40% of its funding from federal and state grants but operates as a private foundation. Does that museum need wheel chair ramps to comply with the ADA?

I don't know how much funding GS receives directly in grants, but I'm sure they get at least indirect support.

In your example though, the museum would have to put in a ramp during new construction or remodeling IF they are pulbic or commercial faciltiy- not necessarily because they recieved grant money.

[thyme4change]

Well Edie used the wrong "there" in her letter, so I'm biased against her now.

[8 Bit WWBG]

If the troop did "reform on the sly" and all the other troops were "mysteriously full" that would be truly sad for the girl. She is taking guilt by association since her mothers actions have caused nobody to want to deal with her.

[movingforward]

Aug 2, 2012 16:43:34 GMT -5 @hootieman said:

I think the organizations get their money from dues, private support, and the United Way. I know of no state money in Texas going for scouting.

They are making money from all the damn GS cookies I buy every year that's for sure

[thyme4change]

She is taking guilt by association since her mothers actions have caused nobody to want to deal with her.

It is unfortunate, because that is what happens when you become an 'advocate.' It is true that if you are going to fight FOR your beliefs, you are most definitely find that someone is fighting AGAINST you. It is unfortunate that this woman is so caught up in doing what is righteous for her daughter, that she can't figure out what is best.

[thyme4change]

They are making money from all the damn GS cookies I buy every year that's for sure

Have you seen this? Hilarious and terrible!

[Abby Normal]

Aug 2, 2012 16:53:25 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

She is taking guilt by association since her mothers actions have caused nobody to want to deal with her.

It is unfortunate, because that is what happens when you become an 'advocate.' It is true that if you are going to fight FOR your beliefs, you are most definitely find that someone is fighting AGAINST you. It is unfortunate that this woman is so caught up in doing what is righteous for her daughter, that she can't figure out what is best.

I don't see that the troop is fighting against her. They included her and accomodated the daughter for a long time. But since it operates on a limited budget, and the mom is being "fussy", the council starts restricting the activities and it goes down hill from there. I think it likely that the volunteers decided it wasn't worth it to try and accomodate mom.

The other girls will likely join another troop and there is nothing preventing the deaf daughter from doing the same thing.

I'm involved with cub scouts and there are those parents who just suck the life right out of you.

[zibazinski]

Good luck to that girl getting any troop to take her.

[thyme4change]

I'm involved with cub scouts and there are those parents who just suck the life right out of you.

Exactly. She is likely so caught up in the cult-like atmosphere of advocating for something, that she couldn't see past it and do what is best for her child - which would be to pick her battles with the troop and with GSA carefully and make good decisions on how these things should work. Maybe the gal is fine in regular meetings, but would need additional help if they went somewhere with a lot of noise. Maybe you push to raise that $50 to $100 or even $200, not $1500! Maybe you agree to go to some of the events with your daughter and be responsible for communication, and skip a couple, and use your intrepretor budget wisely. Maybe you go halfsies with GSA to show a good faith effort. Maybe she did all that, and it escalated at the end - but it sounds like she is willing to take an "All or Nothing" stance, and I suspect that is not what her daughter wants.

[Deleted]

Shanendoah, karma for you. You did a beautiful job explaining the issue. The child shouldn't be excluded from Girls Scouts just because she may need an interpreter (particularly for camping), and the parents may not have the $20,000 or even half ($10,000) to allow this girl to lead a relatively "normal" life.

I do think it probably was a power struggle between the other parents and the girl's parent. If Special Education wasn't law and therefore not up for debate, you would see the same power struggle multiple times as parents watch hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent on a single child's education because they need, for example, a personal aide from the time they enter kindergarten until they age out at 22. Or a child's needs can't be met with regular school so they must attend a special school at taxpayer's expense.

Accommodations are expensive. But these parents didn't ask for these "special" children. If it was your child, you would fight to give that child as normal a life as possible. And when you get used to fighting for your child, you may come across as demanding.

Try to stand in their shoes sometimes. The "volunteers" are within their rights to quit volunteering. But I don't think the mom is necessarily wrong to expect her child's special needs to be accommodated. In a perfect world, there would be middle ground and balance. But we don't live in that world.

[Abby Normal]

Aug 2, 2012 17:54:38 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Shanendoah, karma for you. You did a beautiful job explaining the issue. The child shouldn't be excluded from Girls Scouts just because she may need an interpreter (particularly for camping), and the parents may not have the $20,000 or even half ($10,000) to allow this girl to lead a relatively "normal" life.

I do think it probably was a power struggle between the other parents and the girl's parent. If Special Education wasn't law and therefore not up for debate, you would see the same power struggle multiple times as parents watch hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent on a single child's education because they need, for example, a personal aide from the time they enter kindergarten until they age out at 22. Or a child's needs can't be met with regular school so they must attend a special school at taxpayer's expense.

Accommodations are expensive. But these parents didn't ask for these "special" children. If it was your child, you would fight to give that child as normal a life as possible. And when you get used to fighting for your child, you may come across as demanding.

Try to stand in their shoes sometimes. The "volunteers" are within their rights to quit volunteering. But I don't think the mom is necessarily wrong to expect her child's special needs to be accommodated. In a perfect world, there would be middle ground and balance. But we don't live in that world.

But how much simpler would it have been if either parent had simply been involved with the troop. Again, I go back to why doesn't the mom know ASL. Does the daugher need an interpreter for school?

In any group, there are those that DO and those that complain about how it's being done instead of helping to get it done.

We have a boy who is in a wheel chair in our scout group. He can't do everything the other boys do and we've never had any issues like this with his parents.

[formerroomate99]

Try to stand in their shoes sometimes. The "volunteers" are within their rights to quit volunteering. But I don't think the mom is necessarily wrong to expect her child's special needs to be accommodated.

And again, if the mother doesn't feel the need to learn ASL for when she takes her daughter to noisy places, then why is it so darn important that the girls scout troupe provide an interpreter? The mother's failure to learn ASL completely contradicts the idea that an interpreter is necessary. This isn't about accomodating a diabled girl, this is a cash grab by a nutjob.