Actions vs. intent

[Firebird]

Which matters more to you, generally speaking? If someone were to steal something from you that you really cared about, would you care why they did it? If someone stiffed you on a personal loan, would it matter to you what was more important than paying you back?

Generally, I do not care what someone's intent might be, only what they do. I know Lena and I had an interesting discussion on this point awhile back. Thought I'd reopen the debate

[Deleted]

Yes. Intent is very important. If someone stole something because they were broke and had to feed their children and had a weak moment, then i would have more understanding for that than if they just took it because it was there and they wanted to sell it to buy an Xbox or something.
I don't see how you cannot separate issues of action and intent.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I despise thieves. I don't give a damn what reason they would have for taking my stuff. Go rob a bank or con an elderly couple/rich idiot out of their savings like an honest criminal, don't resort to petty thievery like an animal.

If someone stiffed you on a personal loan, would it matter to you what was more important than paying you back?

Eh... maybe. I've loaned my sister money that she swore I'd get back and I didn't. She had relatively good reasons... kind of.

[Deleted]

There are degrees of action and intent. And, even the Law and legal system recognize that. I tend to be very forgiving of people. People make stupid mistakes, we all do. To me, there is a difference between a stupid mistake and lapse in judgement versus a lifestyle or pattern of bad behavior.

[Peace Of Mind]

don't resort to petty thievery like an animal

My animals don't steal. They will just take it in front of me. They are honest about it. Stealing is underhanded and sneaky.

They are both important to me. It would depend on the situation but whatever the person does - own up to it! I hate liars more than I do thieves.

ETA: FB - Are you missing some silver?

[cronewitch]

Stealing wouldn't matter the reason. Borrowing then becoming unable to repay is less bad than borrowing not intending to replay. If you borrow money from a person you should pay it back even if you are bankrupt the only excuse would be your death or disability so you couldn't earn the money and had nothing to sell.

[whoisjohngalt]

You already know that I think intent is important

[Firebird]

There are degrees of action and intent. And, even the Law and legal system recognize that.

Not always... there are certain "strict liability" crimes where intent is irrelevant. You did it, you're guilty - your reasoning doesn't matter. Granted, those are few and far between.

Beyond that, though, just because the law recognizes a difference doesn't mean I have to do the same. Sure, of course, it can't be TOTALLY irrelevant. But for the most part, I go by actions and I don't consider intent to be an excuse.

Specifically, it bothers me when people say "I didn't MEAN to hurt you when I did X." I usually hear that one of two ways - an excuse (meaning I shouldn't care anymore that I was hurt because they didn't mean it) or a justification (meaning it's okay that they did it because the intent wasn't to cause harm).

And I don't accept either one.

[Firebird]

ETA: FB - Are you missing some silver?

Is this a reference to my lovely houseguests, or do you have something to tell me?

[Deleted]

Jun 8, 2012 16:41:50 GMT -5 cronewitch said:

Stealing wouldn't matter the reason. Borrowing then becoming unable to repay is less bad than borrowing not intending to replay. If you borrow money from a person you should pay it back even if you are bankrupt the only excuse would be your death or disability so you couldn't earn the money and had nothing to sell.

How can you say it doesn't matter the reason? So you would see no difference if a mother stole a loaf of bread to feed her child versus mega millionaires funneling and stealing money? I see a Big Difference.

[cronewitch]

Some animals steal, they know better but sneak. My ISO was putting away groceries once and a neighbor cat took a steak and wouldn't release it even when he picked it up so he let him keep it. The owner said the cat came home with the steak. My brother's dog stole a thawing salmon from the neighbors kitchen counter when they weren't looking. Animals know when they are stealing and in the wild will steal food from each other if they can.

[Deleted]

Jun 8, 2012 16:44:37 GMT -5 Firebird said:

There are degrees of action and intent. And, even the Law and legal system recognize that.

Not always... there are certain "strict liability" crimes where intent is irrelevant. You did it, you're guilty - your reasoning doesn't matter. Granted, those are few and far between.

Beyond that, though, just because the law recognizes a difference doesn't mean I have to do the same. Sure, of course, it can't be TOTALLY irrelevant. But for the most part, I go by actions and I don't consider intent to be an excuse.

Specifically, it bothers me when people say "I didn't MEAN to hurt you when I did X." I usually hear that one of two ways - an excuse (meaning I shouldn't care anymore that I was hurt because they didn't mean it) or a justification (meaning it's okay that they did it because the intent wasn't to cause harm).

And I don't accept either one.

Well, we do have Degrees. We have varying degrees of murder, manslaughter, etc. We DO look at intent and motive.

[Firebird]

To me, there is a difference between a stupid mistake and lapse in judgement versus a lifestyle or pattern of bad behavior.

Well, I agree there's a difference between a onetime lapse in judgment and a lifestyle choice, but (to me) the difference doesn't come down to intent.

If DH were going to cheat on me, would I prefer a onetime lapse when he was dead drunk and some woman came on to him over a long-term affair? Of course, obviously. Almost anyone would. But if you think about it, it's unlikely that his intent in EITHER scenario would be to screw me over. Most likely, he just wouldn't be thinking much about me at all. The difference between lapse versus affair is significant only to the extent that one is a continued, measured choice with full knowledge of the potential consequences.

I suppose you can make an argument for that knowledge feeding into intent but I don't buy it. Ironically, in this case I would care very much about intent but not because it would be more important to me than the actions - because I would have to wonder what was going on in our marriage that he felt compelled to look elsewhere.

[Deleted]

If someone steals from me I will never trust them again no matter what the reason. I would give a young person a chance to learn better but an adult would be toast with me. There is just no reason to steal from me. You can ask or find another option. The fact is you wouldn't have to steal food, if I know you are hungry I would feed you.

The loan is a different thing. I was asked for the money. I had a choice. I knew the risk. I might never loan you money again but I could maintain a friendship with you if you could accept that you will never get another cent.

[Firebird]

Well, we do have Degrees. We have varying degrees of murder, manslaughter, etc. We DO look at intent and motive.

I realize the LAW does, but my point is that I don't really care. If someone were to murder my kid, my kid would be dead regardless of their intent. It wouldn't matter to me if they MEANT to kill her or if they had a really good reason to kill her. The end result is the same regardless of the legality.

[Firebird]

How can you say it doesn't matter the reason? So you would see no difference if a mother stole a loaf of bread to feed her child versus mega millionaires funneling and stealing money? I see a Big Difference.

How about they're stealing the same thing, to compare apples to apples. One person steals a phone off a bench because she's lost and can't figure out how to get home from where she is. Another person steals the same phone because he thinks it looks cool.

You're the phone's owner - do YOU care why the thief took it? I wouldn't.

[zibazinski]

Actions. Intent matters to some, not to others.

[Abby Normal]

For me it depends on the action and the relationship to the person.

My Sister borrowed money years ago with the intent of paying it back. I trusted her and although it took her much longer than she anticpiated, she did pay it back. Long story short, she paid be a boatload of interest and continually reminded me of her intent. I was very pleased with the situation even though it took much longer than originally expected.

Two kids on our street got into a fight. Our car was damaged and they had to work to cover the cost. I don't care what their intent was, their actions are what will stick with me.

But most of all, if DH INTENDS to buy me a card for my birthday, and fails to do so- his ACTIONS are what are going to land him on the couch.

[Firebird]

But most of all, if DH INTENDS to buy me a card for my birthday, and fails to do so- his ACTIONS are what are going to land him on the couch.



Yup.

[Deleted]

If someone steals from me, I have no sympathy regardless of the reason. If they're trying to feed their child or something, I would've helped if they'd asked.

Borrowing money and not paying it back........ Years ago I financed some furniture for a relative. She got really sick, hospitals and surgeries sick and couldn't work for a year. I felt bad for her and just paid the bill. Then she went back to work, still didn't pay the bill and I started getting upset. Then she moved a guy into her house and still didn't pay the bill even though she knew my money had started to get funny. I got closer to livid and the whole family knew it. Her Mom and her sister got in her ass about it, so she started writing me checks. The first couple of checks bounced so I started taking them to HER bank. Some of them still weren't good, so I started taking them on her payday. It was a hassle, so I told her she had to give me cash.

I was angry with her for a long time. She apologized many times and I finally told her it wasn't helping, just leave it alone. I eventually got over it and we're fine now, but I'll never loan her money again.

So, while she was sick I was understanding about it, assuming she had good intentions, but was unable to follow through. When she went back to work and her situation started improving, she apparently had no intention to pay until I started raising hell. It made a difference to me.

[Deleted]

I have never believed in "intent." That is a byproduct of my training in literary criticism. What a writer "intended" is immaterial to any discussion. What they "did" is what matters.

That perspective spilled over to my personal philosophy a long time ago. That doesn't mean I don't forgive. Just don't waste the time or breath justifying yourself.

[Deleted]

Explaining "why" isn't necessarily trying to "justify" why. Oftentimes, people explain things to explain and shed light on why , not necessarily as way to justify or excuse.

Sorry, but you can say you don't consider the intent but you do. If your child bumped and spilled and broke a glass of milk by accident, you would treat that child differently than you would if he took that same glass and threw it against a wall in a fit of anger.

[Firebird]

That perspective spilled over to my personal philosophy a long time ago. That doesn't mean I don't forgive. Just don't waste the time or breath justifying yourself.



I'm actually super forgiving (more than I probably should be). I just hate hearing excuses. You hurt me - admit it and let's move forward.

Explaining "why" isn't necessarily trying to "justify" why. Oftentimes, people explain things to explain and shed light on why , not necessarily as way to justify or excuse.

If the person you hurt makes it clear that s/he doesn't care WHY you did what you did then yes, continuing to "explain" is attempting to justify.

If the person ASKS why you hurt them in X way, that's different. Of course, then you should explain your reasoning.

If your child bumped and spilled and broke a glass of milk by accident, you would treat that child differently than you would if he took that same glass and threw it against a wall in a fit of anger.

Kids are different than adults and, especially if this is MY kid that I'm training to act like a respectable member of society someday, intent certainly does matter. But even then, I'm going to make it real clear that REGARDLESS of your intent, you cannot throw a glass of milk at me. Ever. Not even if you have a really, really good reason.

[Firebird]

Remember that HIPAA thread a few weeks ago? Likely wrongside's friend didn't INTEND to hurt anyone, but he might well have caused serious injury with his careless remark, whatever it was. If someone violated my medical information to my detriment, I wouldn't really give a flying fuck WHY they did it.

[quotequeen]

It depends entirely on the circumstances and on what you mean by whether I care. If it's something that directly affects me then the impact to me is the same so in that sense I don't care about the reason. If it was a total stranger I was never going to see again and didn't care about at all, it probably wouldn't matter to me why he stole something from me. If we are talking about somebody who is part of my life and will continue to be part of my life, that person's intent will affect how I view him as a person and therefore my ongoing relationship with him. So in that sense, yes, I care.

[Deleted]

I agree that kids are different. They are in the learning mode. I figured we are talking about adults who understand that their actions have consequences. I work with kids, by the way. They are fairly inventive in coming up with "why" they did/didn't do XYZ. I honestly say, "Give me the short version. What are you going to do to correct what you did?" It's not being mean. It is acknowledging that intent doesn't go very far. (As in, "I intended to do all my journals last night, but then my grandmother went to the hospital." Never mind that those journals were assigned six weeks ago. Their intent was honest (they could have been done in a single night with a lot of hard work), but that didn't work out so well.)

Today I took my grandsons out for yogurt at a toppings place where they weigh your yogurt and toppings. After we ate ours, the boys went to the bathroom to clean up. On the way out, the oldest one stopped to help himself to a gummy bear. I said, "Johnny (not his name), that's stealing." He dropped it like a hot potato (thankfully not back in the container . . . LOL). He didn't intend to "steal," but since a single gummy bear wouldn't weigh on their scale, that is what it was.

I honestly don't want to hear a lot of excuses. It simply isn't my style. And I'm not actually a very judgmental person. But just don't spend so much time on why whatever happened (and why it isn't your fault). Tell me where we are going from there.

Sorry if that offends anyone. . . truly.

[Deleted]

OK, adults. If a friend is at your home and accidently spills and breaks a glass of milk. Or, if the friend is at your home and all of the sudden becomes pissed off over something you said and grabs a glass of milk and hurls it into the wall.

Same result either way. Do you treat them in the same manner?

You don't. Nobody's world is as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be.

[Deleted]

As for explaining, YOU may perceive explaining as someone trying to make excuses or get out of consequences. I never said there shouldn't be consequences for one's actions. Yes, the mother stealing the loaf of bread will still receive consequences or may need to make restitution. Or, the person from whom it was stolen may choose to have mercy or whatever. And the person who intentionally and with disregard and malice may get a harsher punishment. I am certainly not saying that the Intent somehow gives someone a free pass if that is what you are reading into my comments.

[Deleted]

Almost every person who embezzles from a company "intended" to pay it back. I honestly believe the person believes that when it starts.

The result is still theft whether it is to keep the heat on in winter or pay off gambling debts.

[Deleted]

OK, adults. If a friend is at your home and accidently spills and breaks a glass of milk. Or, if the friend is at your home and all of the sudden becomes pissed off over something you said and grabs a glass of milk and hurls it into the wall.

Same result either way. Do you treat them in the same manner?

You don't. Nobody's world is as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be.

I agree that you don't treat them in the same manner, but not because of intent. And I have a really hard time with your example because no one I know would hurl a glass of milk into the wall. It's a bad analogy for me because I don't deal a lot with that sort of extreme.

So say both situations end up with spilt milk, one being the result of some passive-aggressive feelings toward me. Do I worry about "intent" or just clean up the milk?

And I do deal with this every day. One kid has a smart way of talking to everyone (always including the parents). Another kid doesn't. Do I let kid A talk to me like that just because he/she doesn't "mean" anything by it? No, I have to say, "You cannot use that tone to talk with me." Intent doesn't matter.