AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 4, 2012 9:34:16 GMT -5
So, we had a big family and friends shindig this weekend up in Chicago, and I met up with a bunch of the usual suspects that I don't see much, but I see them at these things-- I'm assuming we all have family and friends like that?
Anywhoo- I was amazed at the level of open, shameless whining and complaining by some about the "economy" and the "job market", etc. and at about 9:00 p.m. after a good bit of partying since noon, we were sitting around the fire and I let loose.
First person that started in just set me off- my recently graduated younger brother. He is single, he's moved back home-- which mystifies me because my parents never would have allowed me to move back home, but I digress. He's got a degree from a prestigious school a lot of which was paid for by scholarship money, so good for him there- but he took 6 years to get it done, still managed to borrow a bunch of money, and so far all he's managed to do in the last year is get a job working at a restaurant while looking for a "real" job. He's complaining that there are no jobs.
So, I inquired as to his job hunting habits, and my other younger brother (who has issues of his own, but we'll leave him alone for now) chimed in and said, "[his job hunting habits consist of] working until 3:00 a.m., sleeping until 3:00 p.m., and going to work again".
Now, I have a friend who runs a non-profit in Chicago that helps first-time grads get their first "real job" in their field, but he has skipped the last two $50 a seat sessions that I got him a free invite to, and then I'm basically told he doesn't do shit but work and party, so I just went off.
I wasn't surprised by all the rationalization and justification of my brother- you know you can't admit your older brother is right about something, but I was caught off guard by all the defenses offered by the other "mature" adults around the fire.
I asked if he's applied out of the area: No.
I asked if he had sent any applications / resumes at all the previous week: No. and there were reasons- I applied there before, and they never got back to me. So, what. Send it again.
I asked if there were any licenses, trainings, or certifications that would help him? Don't have time, can't afford it. He's making $600 to $1000 bucks a week (fine dining), doesn't have a car payment, and lives at home. Gimme a break.
At his age, I'd completed four years in the Navy, was halfway to my degree, and had been married for four years with my own house.
I'm just miffed by all of this because I never had a tenth of the opportunity handed to me, and if I had, I would have had a $75K a year job by the time he graduated, let alone by now.
The very thought of me being in this situation is laughable to almost everyone who knows me-- someone sitting around that fire with us would have had the come to Jesus talk with me about my career goals six months before this, and with my younger brother they seem to put up with it?
Do you think expectations have something to do with older-younger siblings financial and career performance?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 4, 2012 9:38:46 GMT -5
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 4, 2012 9:39:18 GMT -5
Yep. I'm an oldest child. I always was and still am expected to be perfect. In my family, expectations decreased dramatically for the 2nd and are almost non-existant for the 3rd.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 4, 2012 9:41:35 GMT -5
I was the only girl in a family of boys.
My brothers were always in trouble, even when I'd caused it......In my Dads eyes I could do no wrong ;D
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 4, 2012 9:44:30 GMT -5
I'm the youngest, as is my husband, so apparently we are slacking whiners.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 4, 2012 9:47:04 GMT -5
Not if your parents didn't raise you to be a slacking whiner. My mother knew my brother was her last child and she tried very hard to keep him a baby as long as possible. It worked. He's in his 30s and still a big baby.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jun 4, 2012 9:54:55 GMT -5
It's kind of the opposite in my family. My parents kept helping my brother over and over, while I was expected to learn from his mistakes To this day, my brother keeps making stupid decisions (mostly financial) and we are exact opposites when it comes to ambition and saving/budgeting money.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 4, 2012 9:56:29 GMT -5
Paul, this topic really doesn't have anything to do with politics, or the markets. I'm going to move it to YM off-topic, since it really doesn't have anything to do with finance, either, but will fit there better than here, I think. mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 4, 2012 9:56:47 GMT -5
Yep. I'm an oldest child. I always was and still am expected to be perfect. In my family, expectations decreased dramatically for the 2nd and are almost non-existant for the 3rd. Yeah- bro in question is THE youngest, and the fourth.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 4, 2012 10:02:11 GMT -5
I was the only girl in a family of boys. My brothers were always in trouble, even when I'd caused it......In my Dads eyes I could do no wrong ;D Sis, is that you?
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 4, 2012 10:03:23 GMT -5
Sounds like our house, too. Same for DH. His only sibling is a heavy-drinking, three-times married . I'm the college graduate. Neither of my (younger) siblings even finished high school. Definitely different expectations. We were both expected to do more and be the pride of our parents. The younger ones got away with more. Maybe our folks were just exhausted by the time the others came along. Or just more relaxed about child-rearing.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 4, 2012 10:04:15 GMT -5
Not if your parents didn't raise you to be a slacking whiner. My mother knew my brother was her last child and she tried very hard to keep him a baby as long as possible. It worked. He's in his 30s and still a big baby. My wife, who is the youngest of two, btw and who admits she had to work very hard to overcome her parent's coddling, says this is a good explanation. She says my parents probably let him move back in, consciously or subconsciously, to postpone the empty-nest syndrome.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 10:11:29 GMT -5
I don't think my family follows the patterns. I'm the oldest and probably fit the mold the best; sensible (mostly), responsible, driven to succeed. Second and fourth siblings doing very well. My sister was the stereotypically ditzy middle child who ended up becoming a doctor at age 33. Youngest is a tax partner with a large accounting firm and could probably buy and sell us all.
In my Ex's family, he should have been the achiever and I think it always irritated him that he wasn't. He was the firstborn son but his younger sister was smart, driven and ended up with all the things he coveted- a highly successful business, a house on the NJ shore with a private beach, a floor-through in a prewar building in midtown Manhattan, and twin Mercedes-Benzes in the garage. He was the whiner- nothing was his fault. His sister was the worker and she got the rewards.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 10:13:09 GMT -5
sounds like someone's bitter..... I guess I would be too. For all intent and purposes, I'm an only child - DH is the middle child for his dad, oldest for his mom. They both treat him like the oldest. Meanwhile his sister (late 30s) married a total loser 4-5 years after having his kid, then proceeds to have 2 more kids with him. He is her age and has about as many jobs as years old he is. He is currently a "SAHD", but yet the littlest one still goes to daycare. Oh, and they have been living with his mother and her life partner and her life partner's aunt for the past 4 years. Still can't afford to buy a house, still in lots of debt. DH's parents paid for the first 2 years of his college degree but then his brother started school and they said they couldn't afford to help him. So he worked and cash flowed it for a year, then he moved back home to same on board. He has had to loan his parents money MANY times. And he had to buy his own car and pay for his own cell phone and insurance. Meanwhile, BIL was given two cars (wrecked the first one) while he was living at home, and they paid for his cell phone (highest text and data plan) and car insurance. Believe me, I am very bitter for DH, but he's not really bothered by it. Other family members have noticed the discrepancy in treatment, but the ILs are silent. Well, what can you really say? You know you've been grossly unfair to one of your children.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 4, 2012 10:22:35 GMT -5
I'm the oldest, and have experienced this, too. I'm not sure if my mom realized all the rules/restrictions I had were overkill and jettisoned them for my younger siblings, or she just got overwhelmed as they got older, but they got away with a LOT more than I did. I had an 11pm curfew until I went to college; my brother was routinely out until the wee hours of the morning as soon as he got his driver's license, and my sister moved in with her 22yo boyfriend when she was 16. Same with expectations. I was scolded if I got a B on my report card... my brother brought home mostly Bs and Cs and it was no big deal. I was told I was on my own as far as paying for college... my mom took out about $50K in parent PLUS loans for my brother. And on and on. I'm not sure if it's more related to birth order, gender, or the parents' perception of potential, but expectations in my family vary widely. I do understand my mom's perspective - that my brother needs more encouragement (and she's probably right) - but it's still kind of discouraging when you don't even receive acknowledgement for doing the same things for which your sibling gets a party. I probably am a little bitter, but not at all toward my brother - I love him more than anything. He's a good kid, and it's not his fault he's the favorite. (He's my favorite, too!) It does suck to know that your parents don't think you're anything special, though.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 4, 2012 10:41:50 GMT -5
This is what happened in DH's family. DH and his younger sister turned out fine, but the baby is still living at home mooching off his parents and being babied by his mother. That guy is in for a rude awakening when his parents die because that whole 'poor me' thing won't work on any of the siblings or their spouses.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 4, 2012 10:42:30 GMT -5
It does suck to know that your parents don't think you're anything special, though. I'm sure it's not quite that. I think parents just come to expect certain things from each kid, so what you're doing is "normal" for you but "astronomical" for him. She's probably relieved she doesn't have to worry about you as much. Still sucks though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 10:47:22 GMT -5
I am sorry you feel that way, Paul. I think birth order can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I am the middle child and I heard for most of my life that I am the peacekeeper between my siblings. So, am I naturally the peacekeeper or am I the peacekeeper because that is what is expected of me?
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 4, 2012 11:06:33 GMT -5
Our family doesn't pay much attention to birth order it's all about the gender. My sister and I were expected to do way better in school than either of our brothers. We were expected to get A's with nothing less than a B and that B should be a rare thing. My brother's coasted through with C's and D's. Career wise we were expected to go out and make something of ourselves. It's pure happenstance that I work for my dad now. My younger brother has only ever worked for my dad and my dad hates it. My older brother is a 40 year old college student with a wife and 3 kids. My parents still give him a monthly allowance. My mom balances my younger brother's checkbook and pays all of his bills. They are crippling my brothers with their interfering and coddling. My sister and I are left on our own. Ironically my dad used to tell us that we couldn't inherit his companies because we were women and no one would take a woman seriously in this industry. Turns out my brothers are lazy losers, I am the vice president of his company and my sister is the comptroller for a construction company even larger than my dad's. Proved him wrong.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jun 4, 2012 11:06:46 GMT -5
I have one older brother. I am the higher achieving of the two of us. He's (at least now) still a mostly responsible adult, but I never felt like my parents expected less of me than him. In fact, one of the things I love about my parents is that they expected the same things out of us. Yes, my parents (who are divorced) have helped him out financially more than me, but pretty much every time they helped him out because he needed it, they also gave me something (my mom bought me a couch and dining room table) that I could use but didn't need, etc.
Now, maybe we evened out because our parents divorced when I was in 6th grade and he was a freshman. I then moved to live with Mom in a different state before 8th grade, so my last 5 years of school were without my brother. But that's only 2 more years than it would have been had we stayed in the same house.
I think it can sometimes be hard when there is a large age difference between oldest and youngest (as there seems to be with Paul & his youngest sibling). The world really is different now than it was when Paul graduated college. I don't think he can guarantee that he would have a 75k/yr job straight out of college if he graduated today. I'm not saying that Paul wouldn't be working harder to get that job than his brother is, but you have to remember how difficult it is to be turned down over and over again. Rejection is very powerful, and it's possible that the youngest doesn't actually feel like he's worth anything right now. If a company has already rejected him, what would make him think that maybe this time they won't? I'm not saying it's the best attitude, but I am saying it's an understandable one. And hey, at least he has some kind of a job. He goes to work every day. The other brother claims he parties all the time, and maybe that's the case or maybe it's not. And unless Paul asked exactly what he's doing with his money, how do we know he's not trying to save up enough to move out of his parents' house? Or is putting it into retirement savings, or something along those lines?
I've found that siblings, especially older siblings, are much more judgemental and have much higher expectations of people than anyone else, including parents.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 4, 2012 11:15:19 GMT -5
As an oldest sibling, I would have to agree with you even though I don't really want to! I can be that way even though I'm not proud of it. IMO right is right and wrong is wrong. I don't know that I have high expectations, tho, unless you consider expecting people to do what they are supposed to and to live up to their responsibilities as high expectations. I just consider them regular expectations! My sister and brother would probably disagree.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 4, 2012 11:16:58 GMT -5
While I can see it is could be "bad" the younger bro is living with his parents, he IS working and making 3-4K/mo. He just graduated from a prestigious college with majority scholarships. Not everyone marries young and has kids young. And frankly, I don't think being a homeowner defines adulthood as that is insulting to the many many 30/40/50 year olds who choose to rent. Maybe the younger bro is a whiner and not owning his poor job hunting skills, but I'd hardly call him a loser.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 11:17:59 GMT -5
My oldest sister must be the anomaly: she's as big of a slacker as I am! #4 is the responsible one in our family (she is a year younger than I am) -- so much so that in the even of my parents' untimely demise they would have give her custody of my brother when he was a minor.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 4, 2012 11:20:27 GMT -5
I'm the youngest, but I've got the business degree & the Power of Attorney & the responsibility that goes with it for 2 extended family members. I think responsibility & motivation is something you're taught, or born with. Birth order didn't make any difference in my family. I have noticed in DH's extended family, regardless of birth order, some family members were driven at a young age, & others tended to slack. No one seems to challenge those traits as they get older...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2012 11:53:25 GMT -5
First person that started in just set me off- my recently graduated younger brother. He is single, he's moved back home-- which mystifies me because my parents never would have allowed me to move back home, but I digress. ----------------------- Maybe they just like him more than you. He's working, isn't he? What are you whining about? It's not like he's on welfare. Oh right, I forgot. Your raison d'etre is to show everyone the error of their ways.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 4, 2012 11:53:56 GMT -5
I think one's parents' stage in life influences how you turn out as well. There are 4 of us, one every 4 years. So, the oldest was 12 when the youngest was born. When the oldest was growing up, my parents were on the uphill in terms of income and dreams. By the time the youngest hit the teen years, they were not only divorced (and not necessarily amicably), but on the downhill because they were older parents to begin with. Siblings 1 and 3 can be tough on number 4. But, we (the three oldest) were gone when he was a teenager and he was left to deal with the fallout of the divorce and my parents' late middle age realities. So, naturally, he was parented very differently than those of us who had the benefits of our parents dreams and optimism. I happen to think he's done very well for himself. He works full-time, pays his bills, is married to a wonderful woman, owns a home, travels the world, and spends the bulk of his free time playing in 2 locally-regarded bands. No, he's not the CEO or the partner or the brain surgeon. But, is happiness and success limited to only the people who have those jobs? ?
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Jun 4, 2012 11:57:23 GMT -5
I know my older siblings think I'm a screw up and was my mother's favorite when we were younger but I would hope their opinions have changed now. I have also come to realize that a lot of the basis for their opinion came from things my mother complained to them about me. They didn't see or experience what I did with her and that can make a big difference since I was there to witness everything they put my parents through.
It can be all about perspective. It may appear that your parents are doing more for a younger sibling but since you aren't there, you don't see any of the pressures they may put on him. I know my siblings didn't see the day to day criticisms I put up with from my mother while she was allowing me and my kids to live with her. They saw me "free-loading" but didn't see what I did to help around the house or that I paid my share of the light bill and groceries. All they knew is what they saw when they visited and what my mother told them. And my mother always has something to criticize or complain about.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 4, 2012 12:30:54 GMT -5
I think there are tendencies with birth order but it depends on the person, the parents, etc. I think overall mine were harder on me or watched me like a hawk more because I am the eldest by a few years. My two sibs are close in age.
For now, if you are into traditional success then my middle sib is the winner for now. At one time it was me and who knows what the future may hold? Both my sibs did live with my Mom more than a year post college. I moved out of state after my Master's degree which I got on my dime because there was a major economic downturn like now. Had I not done a few jobs here and there at the University I might not have had the option to be a teaching assistant while getting my graduate degree so I feel it was part luck that allowed me to leave college with a decent job.
Not all of us are go getter achievers and I think that's OK. I'm somewhat like your brother in that if I get a marginal job to get by very often I spend too much time making sure I'm ready, on time, etc. for the job and after recovering from it I often don't expend enough energy for job search. I wish I enjoyed selling myself to employers and trying to find the sweet spot between what they think they want and what they really need with what I can do for them. Maybe that's one of the many reasons being an actor/director/film-maker appeals to me. I have the belief I could slam down my demo reel and if they weren't on the ball enough to realize how exceptional my work was I probably shouldn't be working for them anyway. Unfortunately I feel almost all jobs its about marketing yourself constantly, the people who know, working the politics and overcoming weird perceptions people have based on their own lives.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jun 4, 2012 12:35:59 GMT -5
My oldest brother is pretty much the golden child. Mom wanted him and was thrilled when he was born, I was 15 months later and she already had a baby. I was colicky after kicking her the entire pregnancy. Little bro was 15 months after me so she had three in diapers, dad working out of state. First born was allowed to do things like carve pumpkins or cross the street while we were being told we were too young. When I was allowed to do things little bro was allowed also. Parents expected us to finish high school, college wasn't discussed. Oldest graduated and wanted to play all summer before looking for work. Mom told him he could look for work or join the Air Force but not allowed to pay all summer first so he joined the Air Force for 20 years. I left him the night I finished high school and got a ride to the city to stay with people I used to babysit for. They tried to keep baby bro home they bought a business for him to run with mom. I wrote him a letter asking if they were taking him on their vacation and saying I bet they were glad they were done raising kids, they only had been married 11 months when first was born. He moved to the city right after high school when he was 17. He worked for the post office and at 18 was married and joined the Navy. Parent helped us all a little over the years but mostly oldest even letting him move home after his divorce and dad died for more than a decade of no rent. Now oldest and youngest are retired, mom lives with youngest. He was always the most responsible and takes great care of mom and his wife and kids. Oldest just had his 6th wedding and moved to Mexico to retire. Little bro is still married to the 17 year old he married in 1968 when she was in high school. She finished high school, college, masters and enough credit for a doctorate and is now retired also.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 4, 2012 12:46:19 GMT -5
Maybe I'm weird but I read all these post with the perspective of a parent not as the child I was. My response to my kids when they get older and want to say this stuff is "GROW THE HELL UP!" Seriously as a parent I am doing the best I can with the resources we have. I am not trying to be nicer to one or harder with the other. We are literally doing the best we can to give both kids what they need which is not the same things most of the time. That probably means that as they get older they will notice differences in what they were allowed or did, but it wasn't because one was our favorite. It was because they are two totally different people and have/will have had totally different needs from us as parents.
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