Is affluence oppressive? / BOOK THREAD (see OP)

[Firebird]

ETA: This rapidly turned into a discussion of the book We Need To Talk About Kevin, if anyone else wants to join (it's a very interesting chat). Most posts contain spoiler warnings, so beware.

I know - first world problems, right?

I'm reading a book right now (We Need To Talk About Kevin, if anyone's interested - got a recommendation from a YMer but I don't remember which one) and it had an interesting comment in it that got me thinking.

Without giving away the plot, there is a lot of exploration in the book about why young people from "good" (read: wealthy) homes might suddenly snap. And one theory postulated that if when kids are born into affluence and privilege, some of them might interpret that as having nowhere else to go.

In other words, there's nothing to work toward - they look at their parents' lives and it's a pretty sure thing that as long as they don't screw up too much they'll eventually be set up in a similar kind of life. And if it seems empty and meaningless to them, that's a problem - because what else is there to aim for in life when you're born into a family that seems to have everything?

It was an interesting idea, and I wondered if anyone had thoughts on it.

[Cookies Galore]

I loved that book! I gushed about it on here after I finished reading, but I think it was on an EE book thread. Be warned, near the end of the book I had to stop a few times and cry before I could continue reading.

[Firebird]

Yeah? It's been pretty intense so far. Not sure it's the absolute best book for me to be reading right now ;D But the writing is absolutely lovely. I keep highlighting phrases and paragraphs because they're just That. Beautifully. Written.

I'm at the part where (spoiler warning, I guess) Franklin just asked for a divorce. (I say I guess because it's pretty obvious right from the start of the book that they're not together at the time Eva is writing.) Much closer to the end than the beginning. Was it after that part that the crying parts started?

[Formerly SK]

Excellent book.

Yes, I read that sentence too. I think it is a parenting thing. If you are affluent enough that your biggest problem is you broke a nail before the countryclub gala, that attitude will totally permeate your kids' personalities. If you have the attitude that we have our needs/wants so how best can I improve the world or challenge myself to grow, I think your kids will pick up on that. Lazy/narcissist parents suck no matter what their income.

I do think it is tougher to teach a work ethic to children who have their needs met. Not impossible, just tougher. Similar to it is tougher to teach concepts like sharing to a singleton vs a family of six kids (again, not impossible, just tougher). I very distinctly remember needing new shoes as a kid and having to wait 3-5 paychecks until my parents could afford them. My kids have never had that experience (and won't). You should hear the commentary every morning as I oversee them making their beds. Frankly, it would be MUCH easier to have a maid do it then to spend 10 minutes with them on it, so I can see how if I were more affluent my kids would work less. Fortunately for them, we're not so they will make their own beds.

[Formerly SK]

The whole book was amazing. The last few chapters were heartbreaking. The last few paragraphs were shocking.

Have fun!

[Cookies Galore]

Oh my god, I love how it was written! For such an awful subject, it was such a beautiful story. I really wanted to reach out to Kevin. But yeah, after Franklin asks for divorce things start to get intense. Don't mind me, I'm going to go cry now.

But I agree with you that the emptiness and boredom of affluence was a big theme. It's almost like how the rich kids get involved with drugs and sex; what else is there for them to do? Just different measures of feeling dead inside knowing everything is provided.

[Firebird]

Lazy/narcissist parents suck no matter what their income.

Agreed!

I knew a lot of wealthy kids in high school (I went to a public school, but it was a really good one in a very affluent town) and I don't remember this kind of desperation. Most of the kids I went to school with seemed happy to live where they did. And maybe this was my perception, but most of them did seem to have some level of understanding of how lucky they were.

Having said that, I can understand where it might feel a bit stifling. If you're constantly told that you have everything and on a basic societal level, you really *do* have everything (two married parents who are good to you and have money, brains, looks, opportunities, etc.) but you still feel like something is missing... how would you even begin to figure out what it could be? Would you even feel free to say aloud that you felt like something was missing?

[Firebird]

The whole book was amazing. The last few chapters were heartbreaking. The last few paragraphs were shocking.

That's what I like to hear

I'll probably finish it tonight. I'm very impressed so far. It moves a little slow for my taste at times, but it's so incredibly wrenching. Also, it's pretty rare for me to be disgusted or shocked by a description in a book, but that scene with little Violetta almost made me puke.

[Firebird]

Oh my god, I love how it was written! For such an awful subject, it was such a beautiful story. I really wanted to reach out to Kevin. But yeah, after Franklin asks for divorce things start to get intense. Don't mind me, I'm going to go cry now.

Aw, don't cry!

You wanted to reach out to Kevin? I wanted to lock him in a closet. In the beginning I was on Franklin's side, but after awhile I was just like

[Cookies Galore]

I can't wait for you to finish reading!
It was strange, at the end I just wanted to reach out and yell "Kevin, no!!" I was so disappointed in him, even though you know what he does from the beginning!

[Firebird]

I do feel pretty bad for Franklin at this point. If he still doesn't realize that there's something a little different about / wrong with Kevin, it's unlikely that he'll wake up before the Big Event and I can't even imagine how devastating that would be, especially since he obviously bought the Gee Whiz Slicky Boy act that Kevin put on for all those years.

[Formerly SK]

I somewhat related to the mom. I had a 6th sense about DS' autism when he was just a few months old. Most of his early years were spent studying him and analyzing him in a technical way and then trying to extrapolate that data to his adulthood. As an autism mom you have to argue your child's weaknesses to everyone so you can get help. But then there is also that doubt that perhaps it is all in your head (denial). Now, my son is the sweetest boy alive (lets his sister win everything) so he doesn't have Kevin's specific issues, but I certainly identified the parental process the mom went through. DH and I had several conversations early on where I was worried DS wasn't doing a specific action and DH would defend him. It makes you think you are losing your mind.

[Firebird]

DH and I had several conversations early on where I was worried DS wasn't doing a specific action and DH would defend him. It makes you think you are losing your mind.

This is the part that scares me most about parenthood - knowing something is going on with your kid and being in your position, or Eva's. Not having your spouse even acknowledge your concerns would almost be worse than the issue itself, because it would mean you couldn't face it head-on as a team.

[raeoflyte]

FB--I've debated posting this because I don't want to be one of those downer mom's. But I figure you know me well enough to take it for what it is, and if it works for you (or not)!

Spend the next 5 months reading every book you have ever wanted to! That is just about the only thing I miss from my pre-baby days. My parents spent a lot of years instilling a love of reading in me, (at the expense of their own pleasure reading), so I just plan to pay it forward. I know I'll be able to read more once we're empty nesters.

[Sum Dum Gai]

You don't have to wait until you're empty nesters. My kids preferred reading on their own right about when they hit the point that they could read faster to themselves than I could out loud. For the last few years if they spend an hour a night reading a book, I can do the same, since their reading doesn't involve me at all.

[Deleted]

I wonder about kids of celebrities. Where do most of them end up? That would be a lot to live up to to have a famous rich parent. But, apparently most of them settle into somewhat normal lives and of course have doors opened to TV producing and stuff like that so they probably get pretty high level jobs from the get go.

[Firebird]

Spend the next 5 months reading every book you have ever wanted to! That is just about the only thing I miss from my pre-baby days. My parents spent a lot of years instilling a love of reading in me, (at the expense of their own pleasure reading), so I just plan to pay it forward. I know I'll be able to read more once we're empty nesters.

Aww!

Most of my reading time is on the train, so I imagine I'll probably still do a fair bit of it once I'm back at work. Hope so anyway! I'm sure you guys will have lots of family reading time once your kids get a little older, I know we had plenty of quiet nights in my house where all three of us just sat around reading.

Also, I'm really looking forward to reading all my old favorite kids' books with a new human Definitely can't wait to revisit Wayside School, Klickitat Street, Narnia, Times Square, and all the rest.

[thyme4change]

I also went to a high school with lots of money. (In 1986, there was more than one Porsche in the parking lot.) The school was connected to a high usage of cocaine. And I often agreed that kids with lots of money seemed to get into a lot of trouble. However, now I live next to an "urban" school - and those kids seem to get in a lot of trouble, too. So, I don't know if I can pin the bad decisions of teenagers on the amount of money their parents have.

I do think that there are considerable challenges of growing up in a family that has money. The message is tough - especially for women. You can have it all (you can't.) You can do as well as your parents (you might.) This is the American Dream (well, it is someone's dream - but it comes with a lot of work.)

The topic merits a lot of discussion - but I think we are now just talking about the book, which I read, so I know the premise of your comment. I didn't think that book was about disassociation by children in wealthy families. That was what the main character kept indicating society thought, but Mom's interpretation of her son was more accurate. That character was cracked at birth. If they had been poor and living in the projects, that kid wouldn't have turned out much better. If the author was trying to make the point that kids are born broken, she did it with a heavy hand. If the author was trying to start the discussion of money on children, she didn't leave an opportunity to explore that, because she was too busy proving it wasn't the mother's fault.

[swamp]

I went to a very affluent college and coke was as prevalent as, well, Coke. Not every wealthy kid was a coke head or a trouble maker, or a useless slug, but there was a fair share of them. But then, I wet to a poor HS overrun with drunks who would have been ecstatic to have enough money to buy coke.

[Firebird]

I didn't think that book was about disassociation by children in wealthy families.

It wasn't, it was just a passing theory mixed in with a couple of others when people were trying to figure out what happened. It struck a chord with me, because I don't remember that same desperation but I could imagine how it might come to be.

I was quite miserable in high school but it had nothing to do with money and it certainly didn't have anything to do with feeling like there was nothing better out there. On the contrary, it was the expectation that my life would greatly improve once I got the hell out of that town that kept me from going crazy.

I suppose had I not developed that expectation, I would have turned to drugs or suicide or worse. It's not a hard leap to make. But it never occurred to me that things wouldn't get better once I was out of that environment.

[thyme4change]

I did hear a guy talking about an extensive study. It made so much sense, that I've decided to not research it any further...

The study said that the biggest indicator of depression / happiness was if a person believed that the future would be better or worse than today. If it was better, you were likely happy and optomistic. If, however, you didn't see any upside, you were likely depressed. This study tied the theory to the elderly and said that is why there is such a problem with depression. Because their perception of their future is basically "death" - so, not much to look forward to there!

[Sum Dum Gai]

The study said that the biggest indicator of depression / happiness was if a person believed that the future would be better or worse than today. If it was better, you were likely happy and optomistic. If, however, you didn't see any upside, you were likely depressed. This study tied the theory to the elderly and said that is why there is such a problem with depression. Because their perception of their future is basically "death" - so, not much to look forward to there!

Makes sense to me.

[Firebird]

Totally makes sense. And actually, when I got to college and was even more miserable there, I can honestly say that was one of the lowest points of my life. I had been expecting everything to be so much better in college so when it wasn't, it was like "Oh shit... NOW what do I have ahead of me?".

Fortunately, the real world is the one thing that actually lived up to (and in many ways surpassed) my expectations. I'm quite happy here.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Fortunately, the real world is the one thing that actually lived up to (and in many ways surpassed) my expectations. I'm quite happy here.

Lucky! I still wish I'd been born in a fantasy novel instead.

[Firebird]

Well sure, that would have worked too

[Cookies Galore]

May 14, 2012 18:39:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The topic merits a lot of discussion - but I think we are now just talking about the book, which I read, so I know the premise of your comment. I didn't think that book was about disassociation by children in wealthy families. That was what the main character kept indicating society thought, but Mom's interpretation of her son was more accurate. That character was cracked at birth. If they had been poor and living in the projects, that kid wouldn't have turned out much better. If the author was trying to make the point that kids are born broken, she did it with a heavy hand. If the author was trying to start the discussion of money on children, she didn't leave an opportunity to explore that, because she was too busy proving it wasn't the mother's fault.

I thought it was proof of why women who don't want kids shouldn't have kids! They can smell your resentment. But seriously, this book scared the shit out of me because I seriously don't want kids and if BF ever convinced me to procreate, we would probably end up with a Kevin. Thank god we don't want kids.

FB, hurry up and finish the book!

[midjd]

I do think it is tougher to teach a work ethic to children who have their needs met. Not impossible, just tougher. Similar to it is tougher to teach concepts like sharing to a singleton vs a family of six kids (again, not impossible, just tougher). I very distinctly remember needing new shoes as a kid and having to wait 3-5 paychecks until my parents could afford them. My kids have never had that experience (and won't).

I've wondered about how to deal with this. We're not rolling in dough but our kids won't have to share a bedroom or wash dishes by hand or any of the character-building crap DH and I suffered as kids Plus I wonder how much of my frugality is a direct result of watching my mom panic about what to do when the car/washer/furnace broke down. I'm sure you can still teach kids these lessons in other ways (and it's not good for them to worry about money at a young age) but it would certainly be more of a challenge.

[Firebird]

FB, hurry up and finish the book!

Does Celia ever tell Mommy what really happened in the bathroom? Because I WANT TO KNOW, DAMMIT.

I've wondered about how to deal with this. We're not rolling in dough but our kids won't have to share a bedroom or wash dishes by hand or any of the character-building crap DH and I suffered as kids

Same here. And I do think in some ways it must be more challenging to raise a kid with privilege and make sure they're not a spoiled brat than to raise a kid in poverty and teach them about rising above.

Um... we're good people so it'll work out? Hopefully?

[Deleted]

Full disclosure, I haven't read the book nor seen the film but I know what happens because I'm a weirdo who can't deal with visual violence so I read the film / book spoilers on violent books. I also don't have enough time to read what I want to read, let alone what I can't be arsed to read. So I'm really picky about what I read, but whenever there's an argument at my book club about next month's book, either I read the book, or the spoilers. Luckily for me I joined this book club the month AFTER they read that, but there was still enough arguing that I wanted to look into it. And look into it I did.

Since I haven't read the book, I will only suggest that you read last week's NYT Sunday Mag article about (potentially) young psychopaths / sociopaths. It was written by a new NYT writer. IMO it was extremely well-written, and both exceedingly heartbreaking and disturbing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that kid topped somebody in the family one day, probably the kid immediately younger than him, the one who bugs him so much throughout all eight pages of that article. And my guess is that if I, a reader, know this is a possibility, the parents know it too, and struggle with it every day of their lives. Positively CHILLING, a "real life" Kevin situation.

*****Spoiler alert*****
IMO Kevin was born with sociopathy. If he'd been born into a less affluent family, it probably would have shown up earlier, and his family would have been blamed. He would have tortured rodents or bugs or stray kittens rather than blinding his sister with bleach and killing his dad in the garage with a bow and arrow, because if the family hadn't had money, push would have come to shove earlier.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Sociopathy / psychopathy has likely always existed, although it hasn't always been documented. It has been documented for a while though. The two main indications for sociopathy / psychopathy are pyromania and animal abuse.

You can still do both even if you're born onto the wrong, poor side of the tracks, ie, you're not affluent.

All this to say, FB, I think your relating this to money is barking up the wrong tree.

[Deleted]

Does Celia ever tell Mommy what really happened in the bathroom? Because I WANT TO KNOW, DAMMIT.

Um, no.