The Case For Social Conservatism

[Deleted]

Feb 21, 2012 17:08:06 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Feb 21, 2012 11:06:35 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

When you try to legislate morality, tell people how to live their lives, what and how to worship, who and how to love, it has a way of coming back to bite you in the ass.

Everyone knows that the problem with Santorum is the sweater vest.

I think the country is much more in tune with social liberals who are economic conservatives (with the exception of some small pockets). Leave the preaching to the preachers, and the majority of them are major hypocrites to begin with.

The only thing you can legislate is morality. The question isn't whether or not to legislate morality, but whose morality we wish to legislate?

President Obama's entire defense of his tax and spend agenda is purely moral, and based on his definition of "fairness" which is a distinctly moral concept.

Virtually all the big government expansion from health care, to taxing the 'rich', to financial regulatory reform, and mortgage industry reform-- it's all a moral case being made.

Capitalism is said to be "greedy"- greed is a moral concept. Free markets are attacked and vilified by the left as "immoral" or at best "amoral".

Interesting...it appears now and again without the cloudy partisan goo dripping over it, you have a brain of sorts. Here is the rub.

Morality does indeed spread its tentacles far and wide. The "virtues of selfishness", "I am my brothers keeper", are all moral stances which, if logically followed through, have economic implications. And the world is all connected by fewer than seven degrees of separation. Everything is interconnected if you search hard enough and want it to be.

Metaphysics
Epistimology
Morality
Political Science
Economics
Business school lol (they are for the most part not intellectuals, but idiots)

God (and there are so many gods) and economics should be separate; whether a woman should have a choice over her body and economics, should be separate; whether a guy is born loving women or is one of the ten per cent that is born lusting for men, should be separate.

Morality and not only economics, but everything, intermix and intertwine. The art of politics is to keep them at a safe distance without having one unduly compromise or influence the other.

[diamonds]

dj: That was so nice of you. Sometimes they don't have time to read the replies but the word karma is a standout. I am happy to see you're in a better mood today, as yesterday you must have been sucking on a lemon or something. I tried to avoid you. ha...ha...

[cme1201]

Feb 21, 2012 19:03:58 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

When I was a kid, Kindergarten teachers used to dole out small adhesive-backed gold stars for "Good Work".
That was back when you could get a cup of coffee for a nickel.
The price of coffee has gone up quite a bit since then.

Fascinating.

So sometime between 1912 and 1950.

[beenherebefore]

Social issues were nonexistent in the period 1932 to 1964," he observes."

While he makes some good points, the basic premise of his arguement is wrong, imo, as evidenced by the US Declaration of Independence, for one.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 21, 2012 19:08:12 GMT -5 diamonds said:

dj: That was so nice of you. Sometimes they don't have time to read the replies but the word karma is a standout. I am happy to see you're in a better mood today, as yesterday you must have been sucking on a lemon or something. I tried to avoid you. ha...ha...

i was having fun yesterday, diamonds. ok, it was mean spirited fun. but it was not really "bitter". i don't have much time for bitterness these days. i just made reservations to travel to AUSTRALIA!!!! ;D

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Message deleted by mmhmm. Enough with the preaching, paul. You've been told often enough to cut it out. Not everyone here shares your faith, and those who are Christian, I'm sure, would rather hear a sermon from their minister/priest of choice than read one from you.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I guess the only real question I have is will we be the first people in all of human history to skip the descent into slavery? Can we manage, as a nation, to return to the spiritual faith stage without being compelled to it by the discipline of slavery? In my opinion, we cannot short-cut it with political solutions. Like the last Great Awakening, it will come, if it does, by a spiritual revival that has little to do with legislation. The government by and large doesn't lead anyway- it follows. It legislates what the people are already prepared to accept, or what they actually want-- and though it sometimes differs, and we get all worked up about it, the government basically follows the lead of the people. The various and sundry "outrages" committed by government are the result of movement in the culture. The election of Obama isn't a problem, it is a symptom of a problem.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 21, 2012 23:27:29 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I guess the only real question I have is will we be the first people in all of human history to skip the descent into slavery?

too late.

next question.

[EVT1]

PBP amazes me- I'd hire him in a second to run a PR campaign. All of this overheated rhetoric and obvious bullshit has to take some talent right?

[usaone]

PBP and Stay Put and a few other are on the GOP Payroll I think.

They DO NOT however, reflect the views of most Republicans.

Whenever a Democrat wins the Presidency a small number of Republicans have a tough time handling it.

It was no different under Clinton.

[cme1201]

Feb 22, 2012 9:25:36 GMT -5 usaone said:

PBP and Stay Put and a few other are on the GOP Payroll I think.

They DO NOT however, reflect the views of most Republicans.

Whenever a Democrat wins the Presidency a small number of Republicans have a tough time handling it.

It was no different under Clinton.

Welcome to politics the same frothing of the mouth comes from the liberal side when ever a Rep gets the big desk.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Message deleted by mmhmm. Same reason as the one above.

[mmhmm]

Paul, that's enough with the preaching. Leave religion and the Bible out of your discussion. I won't say it again. The posts will simply disappear.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Message deleted by mmhmm. I did warn you, paul. It doesn't matter who said it, this sort of thing is what moonbeam has asked not be posted. Religion is off the table, unless it's a casual mention.

[Don Perignon]

The devil's compromise mandates that everyone ignore the elephant in the room.
As for the dung beetles (wherever there are elephants, there are going to be dung beetles) pretend that they're butterflies.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Feb 23, 2012 0:54:22 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Message deleted by mmhmm. I did warn you, paul. It doesn't matter who said it, this sort of thing is what moonbeam has asked not be posted. Religion is off the table, unless it's a casual mention.

Can't quote a sitting Presidnt? Can't discuss Rick Santorum's speech about Satan setting his sights on America? Political issues are political issues. To sensor a sitting president's words is overboard. The 'Evil Empire' speech is one of the most famous political speeches of all time.

[usaone]

It doesnt matter. Santorum bombed last night. Watching those 4 folks last night was depressing.

Ron Paul and Gingrich seemed to do a little better than the other two.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 23, 2012 9:07:58 GMT -5 usaone said:

It doesnt matter. Santorum bombed last night. Watching those 4 folks last night was depressing.

Ron Paul and Gingrich seemed to do a little better than the other two.

i don't think Gingrich can come back with a 61% unfavorable rating.

[gavinsnana]

Morning all, nice thread Paul.

[mmhmm]

Feb 23, 2012 7:47:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Feb 23, 2012 0:54:22 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Message deleted by mmhmm. I did warn you, paul. It doesn't matter who said it, this sort of thing is what moonbeam has asked not be posted. Religion is off the table, unless it's a casual mention.

Can't quote a sitting Presidnt? Can't discuss Rick Santorum's speech about Satan setting his sights on America? Political issues are political issues. To sensor a sitting president's words is overboard. The 'Evil Empire' speech is one of the most famous political speeches of all time.

Satan is not a political issue, paul. Satan is a religious issue. You already know the drill.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[formerroomate99]

Social issues were nonexistent in the period 1932 to 1964

I have to wonder how much of that is due to the pre-1964 economic and social policies being dictated by the prevalent Christian values.

For example, in my grandmother's time, if a child was born out of wedlock the state provided orphanages instead of giving the mother money, even though running an orphanage is much more expensive than handing out welfare checks. I think a large part of the reasoning for this was because it was thought that if the child's parents were selfish and foolish enough to behave this way, then the kid was better off not knowing his parents, along with the idea that it was in the best interest of the community at large to discourage this type of behavior. When there was a push to shift from the orphanage model to welfare, then it became a social issue, but in both cases, the state was making a moral judgment, looking after the welfare of children, and choosing which behaviors to encourage and discourage.

And in the case of orphanage vs welfare, no matter what your views are about unwed motherhood, an economic case can be made for not encouraging people who can't even take care of themselves to become parents. An awful lot of what is considered social conservativism is also good economics. Some of it is very bad economics, though.

[reasonfreedom]

Feb 21, 2012 2:56:14 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

Anyways, our Founding Fathers were liberals. Ha-ha

Gee, who could forget that famous speech where old George talked about half of the people supporting the other have of the people & (of course) giving them cell phones.

Truth is that I don't know if they were considered "liberal" or not. I do know that the meanings of words have changed over the years & what was expected of people has also changed. Our liberal (if true) forefathers could have never even imagined in their wildest dreams the socialist aims of people now days. Even if called liberal their lifestyle was very close to what is very very conservative now days.

Of course on the other hand maybe they were called "conservatives" & liberals have rewritten history yet again. If you can only point to failed programs it's better to wait a few years & then point at them & claim that they were successful. Yea, that's the ticket!

There were multiple kinds of liberals depending on what years you are talking about.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Liberals are not what they once used to be. We shouldn't even use the word liberal though, we should use democrat or republican. I think democrats and republicans nowadays really don't reflect liberalism or conservatism. Yeah you can say one is liberal but maybe you should add the percentage that you think one is.

[sgtjer]

Liberals are not what they once used to be. We shouldn't even use the word liberal though, we should use democrat or republican. I think democrats and republicans nowadays really don't reflect liberalism or conservatism. Yeah you can say one is liberal but maybe you should add the percentage that you think one is.

The terms have become insults to be tossed in the direction of the opposition, whether they apply or not, by politicians who have no moral foundation.

The partisans eat it up though, so who can blame them for getting away with it?

[reasonfreedom]

Feb 21, 2012 22:35:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 21, 2012 19:08:12 GMT -5 diamonds said:

dj: That was so nice of you. Sometimes they don't have time to read the replies but the word karma is a standout. I am happy to see you're in a better mood today, as yesterday you must have been sucking on a lemon or something. I tried to avoid you. ha...ha...

i was having fun yesterday, diamonds. ok, it was mean spirited fun. but it was not really "bitter". i don't have much time for bitterness these days. i just made reservations to travel to AUSTRALIA!!!! ;D

OMG, you are going to have to let me know that is 1 out of 2 of my next places to visit. Going to Hawaii in April.

[mmhmm]

Really exciting about the trip to Australia, dj! I know you're going to love it. The Aussies are a fun bunch, and it's such an interesting country.

[mmhmm]

Feb 23, 2012 18:06:34 GMT -5 sgtjer said:

Liberals are not what they once used to be. We shouldn't even use the word liberal though, we should use democrat or republican. I think democrats and republicans nowadays really don't reflect liberalism or conservatism. Yeah you can say one is liberal but maybe you should add the percentage that you think one is.

The terms have become insults to be tossed in the direction of the opposition, whether they apply or not, by politicians who have no moral foundation.

The partisans eat it up though, so who can blame them for getting away with it?

Precisely, sgtjer. Such terms have no real meaning. They're just pejoratives to fling at someone with whom you disagree. It's like kids in a sandbox using all the "bad words" they know to rank one another. Pure foolishness, IMO.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Feb 23, 2012 10:51:05 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Feb 23, 2012 7:47:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Can't quote a sitting Presidnt? Can't discuss Rick Santorum's speech about Satan setting his sights on America? Political issues are political issues. To sensor a sitting president's words is overboard. The 'Evil Empire' speech is one of the most famous political speeches of all time.

Satan is not a political issue, paul. Satan is a religious issue. You already know the drill.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

So, if hypothetically, I was a SAntorum supporter and I wanted to defend him against criticism, or even agree with him on his Satan remarks, I couldn't do that- but people can say anything against religion they want here?

[mmhmm]

That isn't what I said, paul, and I'm not going to argue the issue with you.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[ungenteel]

<<The only thing you can legislate is morality.>>

The ONLY thing you can legislate is that which is Constitutional ... get a clue ... as much as you may want to deny this fact ... morality is relative ... the Constitution is at least subject to review by the Supreme Court ... morality is subject to the wit of the declarer

[formerroomate99]

Feb 23, 2012 22:56:22 GMT -5 ungenteel said:

<<The only thing you can legislate is morality.>>

The ONLY thing you can legislate is that which is Constitutional ... get a clue ... as much as you may want to deny this fact ... morality is relative ... the Constitution is at least subject to review by the Supreme Court ... morality is subject to the wit of the declarer

Some morality may be considered relative. But there are certain morals that are necessary for an orderly society. Violent crime and property crimes really can't be tolerated. Businesses need rule of law, infastructure, and predictabilty to run efficiently. And while many of us have absolutely no intention of ever letting our children set foot in a public school, I think most of us agree that public school should be available and free to all children to ensure that every kid has a chance of becoming a productive citizen.