formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 13, 2012 12:34:55 GMT -5
I'm challenged to think of anything more stupid than the current proclivity of the righties to suggest that keeping the minimum wage at slave labor values is socially proactive with regards to keeping minorities employed ... what self serving dipwads I think the assumption is that the low wages allows people who wouldn't necessairly be given a chance to get a 'foot in the door', establish a work history, and then go on to better jobs. One thing you have to remember is that even with most unskilled jobs, training an employee takes money and manpower. The first couple months at the job, (productivity - cost of training) is often close to zero or negative. To add high wages on top of that makes hiring new people much more of a gamble. Since certain groups of people don't have a reputation for stellar work ethic, they are going to be the ones hurt most as hiring new people becomes more and more risky.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 13, 2012 12:37:19 GMT -5
I'm challenged to think of anything more stupid than the current proclivity of the righties to suggest that keeping the minimum wage at slave labor values is socially proactive with regards to keeping minorities employed ... what self serving dipwads I think the assumption is that the low wages allows people who wouldn't necessairly be given a chance to get a 'foot in the door', establish a work history, and then go on to better jobs. One thing you have to remember is that even with most unskilled jobs, training an employee takes money and manpower. The first couple months at the job, (productivity - cost of training) is often close to zero or negative. To add high wages on top of that makes hiring new people much more of a gamble. Since certain groups of people don't have a reputation for stellar work ethic, they are going to be the ones hurt most as hiring new people becomes more and more risky. No one works at minimum wage for longer then 3 to 6 months. Most if not nearly all min wage jobs are held by teens and college aged students. www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010tbls.htm#1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2012 12:49:29 GMT -5
Does being liar require intent? I agree that he seems more confused than anything, but if you say something that is not true, even if you don't mean to be saying untruths, are you not still lying?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 13, 2012 12:54:50 GMT -5
Paul. Who told you that? Small Biz hire when there is demand. not Paul. he hires when the current CIC is of the same mind as Paul. that is a recipe for failure, imo. No, we hire when all businesses hire: when we are confident of growth in demand and/or profits from our products and services, and when we can leverage employees to make more money. To know whether or not we can do that, we need to be able to predict our costs. I can't believe there's anyone with two brain cells to rub together that thinks that asking employers to guess what labor costs will be by trying to predict inflation will lead to a hiring boom. This is as idiotic an idea as the left has ever had, and the entire point of this thread is that an alleged 'conservative', Romney ought to know better.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 13, 2012 12:57:27 GMT -5
I think the assumption is that the low wages allows people who wouldn't necessairly be given a chance to get a 'foot in the door', establish a work history, and then go on to better jobs. One thing you have to remember is that even with most unskilled jobs, training an employee takes money and manpower. The first couple months at the job, (productivity - cost of training) is often close to zero or negative. To add high wages on top of that makes hiring new people much more of a gamble. Since certain groups of people don't have a reputation for stellar work ethic, they are going to be the ones hurt most as hiring new people becomes more and more risky. No one works at minimum wage for longer then 3 to 6 months. Most if not nearly all min wage jobs are held by teens and college aged students. www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010tbls.htm#1Regardless of these facts, other facts-- such as the fact that if you lower the cost of anything, you get more of it (including hiring), and you also lower the costs of the end product. I can't believe people can't figure out something as simple as if you raise the cost of production, the costs of goods and services rise which makes raising the cost of production- ostensibly to provide workers more money- is negated by the inevitable increase in the cost of goods and services.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 13, 2012 13:00:40 GMT -5
Minimum wage workers comprise 6% of all hourly wage earning individuals. www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010.htmCharacteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2010 In 2010, 72.9 million American workers age 16 and over were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.8 percent of all wage and salary workers.1 Among those paid by the hour, 1.8 million earned exactly the prevailing Federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 2.5 million had wages below the minimum.2 Together, these 4.4 million workers with wages at or below the Federal minimum made up 6.0 percent of all hourly-paid workers. Tables 1-10 present data on a wide array of demographic and socioeconomic characteristics for hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage. The following are some highlights from the 2010 data.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 13, 2012 13:19:02 GMT -5
cafehayek.com/2012/02/minimum-understanding.htmlMinimum Understanding by Don Boudreaux on February 13, 2012 in Competition, Myths and Fallacies, Seen and Unseen, Work Here’s a letter to the Gray Lady: Noting that “New York is an expensive place to live,” you call upon the legislature there to raise New York’s hourly minimum-wage from $7.25 to $8.50 (“Raise New York’s Minimum Wage,” Feb. 13). www.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/opinion/raise-new-yorks-minimum-wage.html?_r=1&ref=opinionIn the same spirit of demanding that government improve people’s economic well-being simply by ordering that people be paid more, allow me to make a similar plea on your behalf. The newspaper business today is in difficult straits. So I hereby call upon the legislature in Albany to force you and other newspapers in New York to raise your subscription and advertising rates by 17.2 percent (the same percentage raise that you want to force low-skilled workers to demand from their employers). Voila! If your economic theory is correct, your profits will rise. And the magnitude of these higher profits, we can assume (just as you assume in the case of low-skilled workers), will be greater than any negative consequences that might be unleashed by such legislative interference in your ability to determine the terms on which you sell your services. You can thank me by giving me my own column, and pay me out of the extra profit that you’ll earn as a result of my petitioning the legislature on your behalf – a petition that, as you say about efforts to raise the minimum-wage, “should not be a controversial measure.” Sincerely, Donald J. Boudreaux Professor of Economics George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 13, 2012 13:30:25 GMT -5
cafehayek.com/2012/02/minimum-understanding.htmlMinimum Understanding by Don Boudreaux on February 13, 2012 in Competition, Myths and Fallacies, Seen and Unseen, Work Here’s a letter to the Gray Lady: Noting that “New York is an expensive place to live,” you call upon the legislature there to raise New York’s hourly minimum-wage from $7.25 to $8.50 (“Raise New York’s Minimum Wage,” Feb. 13). www.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/opinion/raise-new-yorks-minimum-wage.html?_r=1&ref=opinionIn the same spirit of demanding that government improve people’s economic well-being simply by ordering that people be paid more, allow me to make a similar plea on your behalf. The newspaper business today is in difficult straits. So I hereby call upon the legislature in Albany to force you and other newspapers in New York to raise your subscription and advertising rates by 17.2 percent (the same percentage raise that you want to force low-skilled workers to demand from their employers). Voila! If your economic theory is correct, your profits will rise. And the magnitude of these higher profits, we can assume (just as you assume in the case of low-skilled workers), will be greater than any negative consequences that might be unleashed by such legislative interference in your ability to determine the terms on which you sell your services. You can thank me by giving me my own column, and pay me out of the extra profit that you’ll earn as a result of my petitioning the legislature on your behalf – a petition that, as you say about efforts to raise the minimum-wage, “should not be a controversial measure.” Sincerely, Donald J. Boudreaux Professor of Economics George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 13, 2012 14:03:27 GMT -5
My BIL has spent most the past 20 or so years he has been able to work sitting on his azz and mooching off his struggling parents. He isn't fit for hard labor, and has the maturity level of a 15 year old. Now he's finally decided he wants to work, but I have to wonder if any employer will take a chance on him given his past behavior. At any rate, he clearly isn't worth minimum wage and any job he gets is probably going to be the sub minimum wage under the table variety.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 13, 2012 14:20:47 GMT -5
not Paul. he hires when the current CIC is of the same mind as Paul. that is a recipe for failure, imo. No, we hire when all businesses hire: when we are confident of growth in demand and/or profits from our products and services, and when we can leverage employees to make more money. then you should do something to improve your confidence, rather than sit back and play victim, like some entitlement orphan.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 13, 2012 14:22:54 GMT -5
I can't believe there's anyone with two brain cells to rub together that thinks that asking employers to guess what labor costs will be by trying to predict inflation will lead to a hiring boom. 99% of all employment is market based. if you are in the 1%, i would be very surprised.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Feb 13, 2012 14:41:30 GMT -5
If you have one apple tree, and harvest the fruit of that tree, and sell that fruit... fluctuations in the price of those apples do NOT affect the volume of the harvest. If you set the price too low, you do not maximize your profits, if you set the price too high, you get stuck with an inventory of rotten apples. Either way, the productivity of the tree remains the same... the productivity of the tree is dependent upon various other factors. But the market price of the apples does not impact the tree at all.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 13, 2012 14:48:41 GMT -5
If you have one apple tree, and harvest the fruit of that tree, and sell that fruit... fluctuations in the price of those apples do NOT affect the volume of the harvest. If you set the price too low, you do not maximize your profits, if you set the price too high, you get stuck with an inventory of rotten apples. Either way, the productivity of the tree remains the same... the productivity of the tree is dependent upon various other factors. But the market price of the apples does not impact the tree at all. The current market price of apples affects the amount of workers one would hire to harvest the apples, as well as fertilizers and insectides an apple grower will use. The apple orchard owner does not set the price of their harvest.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 13, 2012 15:00:13 GMT -5
If you have one apple tree, and harvest the fruit of that tree, and sell that fruit... fluctuations in the price of those apples do NOT affect the volume of the harvest. If you set the price too low, you do not maximize your profits, if you set the price too high, you get stuck with an inventory of rotten apples. Either way, the productivity of the tree remains the same... the productivity of the tree is dependent upon various other factors. But the market price of the apples does not impact the tree at all. Wow, this post is a glittering jewel of ignorance. You're talking about a tree as if a person just randomly walked up to an existing tree, harvested the apples, and they only had to think about the ideal price point for apples in a windfall harvest. If you have to run an orchard, that's another story... You have to think about the cost of operating the orchard. And you want people to start orchards, expand the orchards, and ensure an ample supply of delicious and nutritious apples at the optimal price for the most people-- you have to recognize that government price fixing that effects the cost of production will either encourage or deter someone from starting, and/or expanding an orchard.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 13, 2012 15:28:19 GMT -5
Anyway, while I didn't intend for this thread to be a debate about the minimum wage. I have gone along with it to make the point- the point is look who agrees with Mr. Conservative, Mitt Romney that there should not only be a minimum wage, but that it should be indexed to inflation. This is the GOP nominee? Again, he should know better.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 13, 2012 15:41:10 GMT -5
Anyway, while I didn't intend for this thread to be a debate about the minimum wage. I have gone along with it to make the point- the point is look who agrees with Mr. Conservative, Mitt Romney that there should not only be a minimum wage, but that it should be indexed to inflation. This is the GOP nominee? Again, he should know better. you only got 2/3 of it. he said it should be 25% higher than it is today, as well.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 13, 2012 16:33:40 GMT -5
How much fruit a tree produces is in part a function of how much care it is given -- fertilizer, watering, pruning, etc. If the farmer doesn't think he's going to get a good price for his apples, he isn't going to spend his money on fertilizers or irrigation or hiring people to prune the tree. He may even cut down his orchard in favor of some other crop.
What products are made, how they are made, and how many people are employed are all very much a function of labor costs.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 13, 2012 19:22:43 GMT -5
To me the most effective way to raise people up is to encourage businesses by tax breaks to hire the unskilled at the current minimum wage. This plan has been very successful in the trade unions for years. The tax break to a company for hiring unskilled to work alongside the skilled would offset any economic loss to the company while the unskilled is learning their craft. They could also offer an incentive to the unskilled to attend evening classes after work. Places like McDonald's and fast food places do have training programs but the opportunity to grow and advance is small. I started many years ago as a grunt and worked and learned my way up to higher pay and better opportunities and I am nothing special anyone can do it if willing.
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