Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 9:21:11 GMT -5
Turns out the Catholic Church wasn't fooled by Obama's slight of hand. Kind of insulting, actually. They're still complaining. Too bad this national discussion isn't going beyond the religious aspect and into the aspect of unnecessary gov't intrusions into people's lives....
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 11, 2012 9:39:46 GMT -5
I think the govt should mandate all health plans pay for regular visits to prostitutes for men over 40, who start experiencing prostate issues. Sexual frequency and prostate health are inter-related. Or Medicare could just pay for Bengay for those pulled shoulder muscles. You obviously did not read the link I posted.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 11, 2012 11:28:25 GMT -5
Article in today's paper..had to skim it , will read in depth later in the day when have time..but seemed the POTUS had to get involved here to come up with a compromise with parties involved, seemed he is not happy with his own staff for allowing this thing to get to where it was.. That is the problem with these threads..the amateurism of the initiators to post headlines that really are mostly false but are posted here to get a rise out of people rather then good honest discussion... In this case it's suggested as if all policies and government programs are 100% the initiation of and the direct actions of the/a POTUS as if that is all he/they seems to do ...leaving nothing up to well qualified subordinates.. Gets tiring and old for this reader actually... When I first read of this possible problem..my first thought was there had to be more to this then is initially coming out, common sense..no politician , and the man is a politician..pisses off 77 million of a voting block , even if they/ it's felt that many are not supporters of the policies..and in this case..the working man/woman who subscribe to the particular religion that seemed to be the one that was most being hurt here, that seemed to be being targeted..to me made no sense, politically..just a bad decision, wouldn't be allowed....and I brought that out and sure enough he did get involved to at least alleviate the problem if unable to make it, problem go away completely..smart man..smart politician, possible not a bad POTUS as I have been suggesting.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2012 11:40:11 GMT -5
Oh Goodie! We have the Jewish vote, now we're getting the Catholic vote, too! It's like Christmukkah! who is we?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 12:24:47 GMT -5
So sorry you didn't like my post headline dezi but to claim to know that my reason for for posting it that way is to get a rise out of people instead of an honest discussion is not mostly, but completely false. In case you havn't noticed the Presidents actions have gotten a rise out of people and I'm sure will continue to do so when we all begin get to see what really is in his health care plan. By the way I think the discussion has been been an honest discussion and you are certainly not obligated to participate in it if it is not to your liking.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 11, 2012 12:45:52 GMT -5
So sorry you didn't like my post headline dezi but to claim to know that my reason for for posting it that way is to get a rise out of people instead of an honest discussion is not mostly, but completely false. In case you havn't noticed the Presidents actions have gotten a rise out of people and I'm sure will continue to do so when we all begin get to see what really is in his health care plan. By the way I think the discussion has been been an honest discussion and you are certainly not obligated to participate in it if it is not to your liking. The post headline " If the president does not yada yadda.." to me if not to any one else seems to put it all on the POTUS , not any one else and if it was not a headline to get a rise out of people , as important as the discussion of..then you sure fooled me. That was just one part of his health plan..or the health plan , however you want to call it and for most of us , we really are not sure yet what it contains..so I grant you , there will be discussions..but to suggest that only a tiny % of are in favor of this or a new health plan is not true..if so it would never would have been passed.. I believe it will be very hard to completely get rid of it , health inititive, now that it is in affect..going into affect..definitely expect ongoing tinkering and refinements of, adds and reductions of..as are all Government programs..ongoing depending on the whims of the times , the political in power and the way the wind seems to be blowing.. As far as participating, since it's a open forum here..as I have done in the past, when interested, I will participate and if I feel that headlines for example, are a pandering to ones feelings and are being used to just stir things up with out offering any thing to a open discussion, I will mention it and even though there has been a good discussion so far on this topic, it's because of the actions of the posters..not the pandering to the authors attempt , IMHO of course, to just stir things up for the sake of..to push ones own agenda rather then topics of interest....there are a few who specialize in that here , again IMHO of course.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2012 12:46:55 GMT -5
So sorry you didn't like my post headline dezi but to claim to know that my reason for for posting it that way is to get a rise out of people instead of an honest discussion is not mostly, but completely false. In case you havn't noticed the Presidents actions have gotten a rise out of people and I'm sure will continue to do so when we all begin get to see what really is in his health care plan. it's not really a mystery. here it is: housedocs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Feb 11, 2012 13:33:28 GMT -5
I was encouraged to hear an interview on the news last night with a Catholic nun and a Jesuit priest. Both were of the opinion that the president's actions yesterday show that he was sensitive to their views on birth control and while not a perfect solution the compromise allowed the country to get by this obstruction and continue to address other needs of the Catholic church. Specifically the nun said that the Catholic church is above all dedicate to helping the poor and homeless who would benefit greatly from subsidized or free healthcare. The same program then showed a segment of one of the Catholic bishops saying that Obama was fooling himself if he thought the compromise would solve this issue. He went on to say that Obama was just "kicking the can down the road". IMO, the bishops got want they wanted, an exemption from paying for birth control.
and I'm sure will continue to do so when we all begin get to see what really is in his health care plan.
The only real problem with the healthcare plan is that conservatives view it as a monument to their having lost control of congress and the white house. Republicans quickly forget that mandating the purchase of health insurance was their answer to Hillarycare. Picking up on that and wanting to put himself in line for a presidential bid, Romney helped push that republican plan into Massachusetts law. It wasn't until years later when Obama achieved exactly what the pubs had wanted to do in the early 90s that the pubs flipped and decided to hate the plan. If Bush had pushed this through when he had control of congress conservatives and republicans would have declared this to be a corporate health insurance boost that would create 1000s of jobs. While that was happening democrats would have panned the bill as taking doctors out of the decision making process and putting corporate America in charge of American's health. At this point, it's done. To reverse it will cost an estimate $40-60 billion and threaten the health of insurance companies who will still have to take people with pre-existing conditions but won't be able to spread the cost over millions of new policy holders. In the long run repealing it would simply shift costs from paying for the poor to paying for freeloaders. IMO, I see a better return putting a health insurance policy in the hands of a homeless person than I do in paying emergency room bills for a freeloader who can but won't buy that same policy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 13:33:49 GMT -5
So sorry you didn't like my post headline dezi but to claim to know that my reason for for posting it that way is to get a rise out of people instead of an honest discussion is not mostly, but completely false. In case you havn't noticed the Presidents actions have gotten a rise out of people and I'm sure will continue to do so when we all begin get to see what really is in his health care plan. By the way I think the discussion has been been an honest discussion and you are certainly not obligated to participate in it if it is not to your liking. The post headline " If the president does not yada yadda.." to me if not to any one else seems to put it all on the POTUS , not any one else and if it was not a headline to get a rise out of people , as important as the discussion of..then you sure fooled me. That was just one part of his health plan..or the health plan , however you want to call it and for most of us , we really are not sure yet what it contains..so I grant you , there will be discussions..but to suggest that only a tiny % of are in favor of this or a new health plan is not true..if so it would never would have been passed.. I believe it will be very hard to completely get rid of it , health inititive, now that it is in affect..going into affect..definitely expect ongoing tinkering and refinements of, adds and reductions of..as are all Government programs..ongoing depending on the whims of the times , the political in power and the way the wind seems to be blowing.. As far as participating, since it's a open forum here..as I have done in the past, when interested, I will participate and if I feel that headlines for example, are a pandering to ones feelings and are being used to just stir things up with out offering any thing to a open discussion, I will mention it and even though there has been a good discussion so far on this topic, it's because of the actions of the posters..not the pandering to the authors attempt , IMHO of course, to just stir things up for the sake of..to push ones own agenda rather then topics of interest....there are a few who specialize in that here , again IMHO of course.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 13:45:14 GMT -5
Yes, we know you love the president and are free to start as many as two Pro president posts a day if you wish. As far as the headline goes you don't have to like it but to insult me a fellow poster, and pretend to know why I chose the headline I did is presumptuous on your part at best. No, I am not a professional writer but do not feel my headline as you call it needs to be edited and approved by you.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2012 14:36:38 GMT -5
Yes, we know you love the president and are free to start as many as two Pro president posts a day if you wish. that should provide some balance to the board. ;]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 15:02:00 GMT -5
The only real problem with the healthcare plan is that conservatives view it as a monument to their having lost control of congress and the white house.
The only real problem with the healthcare plan is that it doesn't solve the main problems in providing healthcare that we already have. It plans to "cover" people by dumping millions into medicaid - a program where people already can't find a doctor to see them. Medicaid is already blowing up state budgets and sinking hospitals. If the Supreme Court decides that the individual mandate to buy health insurance is unconstitutional I don't see how Obamacare can work. It set the fines too low to actually encourage people to pay for healthcare.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 11, 2012 17:19:35 GMT -5
Yes, we know you love the president and are free to start as many as two Pro president posts a day if you wish. As far as the headline goes you don't have to like it but to insult me a fellow poster, and pretend to know why I chose the headline I did is presumptuous on your part at best. No, I am not a professional writer but do not feel my headline as you call it needs to be edited and approved by you. "Love the ..." thats a bit much..a supporter of and still am after three years even though not all of what I would like to see is not happening.., yep, and for those things not happening or he's against, I am probobaly out to lunch on them anyway, understasnd that and accept that. As far as switching to the other side? Now why would I want to do that..I have been a very interesting observer , both in the national media and definitly here with all the Obama nay sayers..would you like me to list the complaints?..Starting with the first familys vacations, his trip to India and Asia with at least half the fleet in attendence , his limo being stuck in the drive way in Britain, suggested by so many his fault there, bottoming out, his toast to the Queen and on and on we go.. Sorry the other side has not convinced me they have the answer to the many problems we face or even care in solving them , but to replace the man and his people, no matter what..oh yes now there is a agenda, seems to be their agenda , # 1 want, since the minute he was sworn into the position..IMHO of course. "No, I am not a professional writer but do not feel my headline as you call it needs to be edited and approved by you" Possible not by me but to be so ---- ----- and not to step back, read your headline and see where others may pick up what you are now saying you do not mean..a bit much..IMHO . What say we move on as on this we are just spinning our wheels..
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 11, 2012 17:37:18 GMT -5
I was encouraged to hear an interview on the news last night with a Catholic nun and a Jesuit priest. Both were of the opinion that the president's actions yesterday show that he was sensitive to their views on birth control and while not a perfect solution the compromise allowed the country to get by this obstruction and continue to address other needs of the Catholic church. Specifically the nun said that the Catholic church is above all dedicate to helping the poor and homeless who would benefit greatly from subsidized or free healthcare. The same program then showed a segment of one of the Catholic bishops saying that Obama was fooling himself if he thought the compromise would solve this issue. He went on to say that Obama was just "kicking the can down the road". IMO, the bishops got want they wanted, an exemption from paying for birth control. and I'm sure will continue to do so when we all begin get to see what really is in his health care plan.The only real problem with the healthcare plan is that conservatives view it as a monument to their having lost control of congress and the white house. Republicans quickly forget that mandating the purchase of health insurance was their answer to Hillarycare. Picking up on that and wanting to put himself in line for a presidential bid, Romney helped push that republican plan into Massachusetts law. It wasn't until years later when Obama achieved exactly what the pubs had wanted to do in the early 90s that the pubs flipped and decided to hate the plan. If Bush had pushed this through when he had control of congress conservatives and republicans would have declared this to be a corporate health insurance boost that would create 1000s of jobs. While that was happening democrats would have panned the bill as taking doctors out of the decision making process and putting corporate America in charge of American's health. At this point, it's done. To reverse it will cost an estimate $40-60 billion and threaten the health of insurance companies who will still have to take people with pre-existing conditions but won't be able to spread the cost over millions of new policy holders. In the long run repealing it would simply shift costs from paying for the poor to paying for freeloaders. IMO, I see a better return putting a health insurance policy in the hands of a homeless person than I do in paying emergency room bills for a freeloader who can but won't buy that same policy. I enjoyed your post above..agree with a lot of it and feel you have hit the nail on the head with it.. I do not believe it will be a easy bill to do away with though I believe there will be a lot of tinkering with it as time goes on and certain realities come to the fore and may have to be amended... Health care has been on almost all the modern Presidents list of wanna bees in some form or another..he's , {Obama} the only one who got it passed in such a complete bill so it is important .. The link to the bill that was put up above "http://housedocs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf " is just to much for this old ones mind as far as understanding it , yet if most of you all do understand it, more power to you, your better, more intelligent then this one.. I am more in tune to what i have now..medicare..responsible for 20% of a bill...either cover that 20% myself from own income , savings..belong to a HMO that would do that or carry a suppliment coverage, pay the premium myself out of income, savings.. I also understand that many, many Americans can not affor that which I have for coverage yet I beleive all Americans are entitled to good medical coverage..and should not be afraid of not having that coverage thus being left out , even from preventive coverage that can iscover a illness or oproblem before it reached a point that made treatment moot or just to costly to be affective.. It seems from what I CAN understand , the "Obama care" gives those folks a shot at that..if so..all in favor of it.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Feb 11, 2012 19:14:20 GMT -5
* MODERATOR NOTE TO DEZI *
Calling another poster "small minded" is a personal attack and an insult. This is not permitted. You are to debate IDEAS, not make snarky comments directed toward posters with whom you have a disagreement.
Cease and desist.
MOLLY THE MODERATOR
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 11, 2012 22:57:02 GMT -5
DEZI are you old enough to remember the sign on Trumans desk when President? If not it said ( THE BUCK STOPS HERE) when you are President of the nation that is the way it is in politics. Always has been always will be.
Alas for all the bible thumpers who preach life begins at conception. When did life for Adam and EVE begin? Answer when he breathed the breath of life into them. All through through the bible it talks of the breath of life. When you can no longer breath you are a dead piece of flesh. When are babies declared born dead or alive/ When they can breath on their own outside the womb.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 23:02:12 GMT -5
"When are babies declared born dead or alive/ When they can breath on their own outside the womb."
Um, no. So an infant on a ventilator is dead? So if you had a baby born and on a ventilator and someone stabbed it in the heart, would you say that person killed your baby? Or would you just say he broke a dead piece of flesh?
And if the indeed are "born alive" are you telling me they were dead one minute before they were born?
If an adult loved one goes into a coma and is on a ventilator, is that person dead? When they come off the ventilator, have they come back from the dead?
See, breathing as a criteria for life doesn't work so well, does it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 23:09:01 GMT -5
The real question is, at what point does a corporation become alive? I'm guessing at conception... ?? What are the implications ....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 23:25:18 GMT -5
Well, after you use it, put it in a box under your bed. Keep a journal and report back in a couple of weeks?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 12, 2012 0:26:21 GMT -5
* MODERATOR NOTE TO DEZI *Calling another poster "small minded" is a personal attack and an insult. This is not permitted. You are to debate IDEAS, not make snarky comments directed toward posters with whom you have a disagreement.
Cease and desist.MOLLY THE MODERATOR wasn't calling but suggesting it but ok , took it back will delete it..however..to use the BOLD the Red as if the end of the world is coming..moderator or not..to me , a bit much, over done, over stated ....IMHO of course...
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Feb 12, 2012 2:40:19 GMT -5
Um, no. So an infant on a ventilator is dead? So if you had a baby born and on a ventilator and someone stabbed it in the heart, would you say that person killed your baby?
So where is the legislation from the right acknowledging that it is against a mother's rights to be forced to act as a ventilator and feeding tube. The right should immediately pass legislation to fund procedures to remove a fetus from the mother whenever the mother no longer wants the fetus. Additional funds should be made available to treat these fetuses with whatever is necessary to keep them alive, including ventilation, feeding and any required surgery. If you want to end abortion, take responsibility for the fetus and if it lives be prepared to nurture, care and educate the child through adulthood. It's real easy to fight birth control and then place responsibility for an unwanted pregnancy on the mother. Given the lack of funding for the care that would be required it's pretty to conclude that the right doesn't want responsibility for these fetuses anymore than the mother of an unwanted pregnancy does.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 12, 2012 4:41:20 GMT -5
Turns out the Catholic Church wasn't fooled by Obama's slight of hand. Kind of insulting, actually. They're still complaining. Too bad this national discussion isn't going beyond the religious aspect and into the aspect of unnecessary gov't intrusions into people's lives.... Too bad the religious right is sticking its massive nose up every woman's uterus. They've made sure that in places like Texas and Virginia, women are now forced to undergo ultrasounds, sonograms and lectures prior to getting an abortion. Kind of insulting, actually. Talk about the unnecessary government intrusion into peoples' lives. The forced ultrasound imaging of a pregnant woman’s fetus is reminiscent of Colonial times in North America, where sinners were forced to acknowledge their sins in a public way (for example, the scarlet letter worn by women who committed adultery). Thus, this most recent attempt to control the choices of women as well as put their physical bodies under the close scrutiny of the state is another potent example of how VA’s GOP preaches small government while enlarging it through public policies that they feel are warranted. That is, these individuals are picking and choosing winners and losers as they increase the long arm of the state. Continue reading on Examiner.com VA GOP forces women to undergo ultrasound imagine before abortion - Richmond Progressive | Examiner.com www.examiner.com/progressive-in-richmond/va-gop-forces-women-to-undergo-ultrasound-imagine-before-abortion#ixzz1m9vG5Vul
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 12, 2012 8:45:42 GMT -5
So the exemptions were granted, and the argument now turns to religious exemptions for all employers.Like the Cardinal said, If I worked at Taco Bell, the law would still apply to me. ...Should all employers be able to be excused from any laws they claim to morally object to?Should first amendment rights be given to all employers? The chuch enjoys quite a bit of autonomy and is exempt from quit a few laws. For one example..Many gender discrimination cases have been thrown out citing the first amendment. The church enjoys eeoc exemptions.As a matter of fact many people claim Bible states women should stay home and the man work . www.natewilsonfamily.net/brthcntl.htm Should an employer be allowed to refuse to hire women because he does not agree with women working?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 9:37:10 GMT -5
That's a great idea. It's good that our government is ensuring patient's rights - and one of those rights is to be informed about our medical procedures before they happen. jezebel.com/5880775/brilliant-state-senator-attaches-rectal-exam-to-anti+abortion-billI'm sad that they couldn't get this amendment (which actually has more of medical basis) through in VA. You can oppose abortion and seek to discourage it, but it is insulting to women and providers to suggest that an ultrasound is necessary to obtain informed consent for an abortion. A transvaginal ultrasound - which is the only way to visualize an early pregnancy - is invasive, uncomfortable, and costs upwards of $300. Surely the government could have found a more cost effective way to shame women? Because that is what that bill is about - shame, not consent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 9:42:15 GMT -5
"Should all employers be able to be excused from any laws they claim to morally object to?"
Actually, the gov't should just avoid excessive regulation, and then everything will be fine.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 12, 2012 10:01:00 GMT -5
Unfortunatly in this case, "excessive" usually means the ones that don't benefit moi.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 10:03:02 GMT -5
Actually, we should just have universal healthcare provided by a sterile, secular entity so that no one can force thier religious beliefs onto another person's health care...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 12, 2012 10:15:55 GMT -5
Actually, we should just have universal healthcare provided by a sterile, secular entity so that no one can force thier religious beliefs onto another person's health care... So, we should impose no faith. Thanks for the suggestion, but we'll keep freedom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 10:29:59 GMT -5
That isn't a misrepresentation of what oped said at all.
Have all the faith you want - just don't force it down anyone else's throat.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 10:44:07 GMT -5
How do i maintain freedom while you are imposing faith?? ... By definition your imposition results in a forcable restriction on my freedom...
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