jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Aug 2, 2011 10:48:50 GMT -5
LOL...considering its the socialist programs that are causing the capitalist system to fail, I hardly call that a capitalist failure...more like a "we told you so" moment for the anti-socialist crowd i am not sure that is any more true than "it is the defense budget that is causing the system to fail". www.usgovernmentspending.com/spend.php?span=usgs302&year=2011&view=1&expand=73&expandC=&units=b&fy=fy12&local=s&state=US&pie=#usgs30280Well, there it is...we can cut back on defense spending to help (and should) but we could cut defense to nothing and still be over $500 Billion in the hole. Pensions take up over $700 Billion! I'd say government WAY overpromised in that regard... Various welfare programs are eating up nearly half a trillion... Health care is up there - nearly $900 Billion and closing in on defense spending - and that's with two/three wars going on! Plus, the spending doesn't even cover the cost of services...think if it did
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Aug 2, 2011 10:54:14 GMT -5
If I use my credit card to pay my mortgage, am I actually paying the bills?
Your mortgage company won't foreclose on you, your credit rating will remain intact, so yes you paid your bill. The question I would raise is why did you budget yourself to have to pay your mortgage that way? Once you started on that course, not to follow through on it would cause you to default on your mortgage, killing your credit rating, causing a potential foreclosure on your property and most likely keeping you from getting another mortgage.
Put in terms of the government, the time to yell and scream was when they drew up a budget that relied on so much borrowing. Everyone knew we would have to raise the debt ceiling so it's not like this was a surprise. Now as they go into negotiations for the 2012 budget, don't miss your opportunity to yell and scream or I guarantee who ever the next president is will again be raising the debt ceiling.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2011 10:54:18 GMT -5
i am not sure that is any more true than "it is the defense budget that is causing the system to fail".
I am so tired of this argument I would be willing to disband our military TOTALLY (100% gone).
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 10:58:31 GMT -5
i am not sure that is any more true than "it is the defense budget that is causing the system to fail". I am so tired of this argument I would be willing to disband our military TOTALLY (100% gone). i think that social spending and defense should both be cut to close the gap. i am sick and tired of defense NOT being discussed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2011 11:07:52 GMT -5
i think that social spending and defense should both be cut to close the gap. i am sick and tired of defense NOT being discussed.
I don't think that it needs to be discussed. Sorry but congress discusses stuff to death (& does studies, etc). Just cut it 20% & use that 20% to pay down the principal of our national debt. The American people will just have to understand than a few more lives might be lost if we use the military.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Aug 2, 2011 11:30:51 GMT -5
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Aug 2, 2011 11:35:42 GMT -5
LOL...considering its the socialist programs that are causing the capitalist system to fail
You need to go back and look at the 2-3 years that preceded every one of the socialist programs. Most of these programs spawned from various market/structure problems.
Yes, let's give the drug addicts more heroine and see if they kick the habit
Drug addicts? The drug addicts are the people who decided that it was a good idea to cut taxes to the lowest point in 50 years without an equal cut in spending. Those are the same people who said that those tax cuts would create millions of jobs. Those same people were given another dose of heroine last December in a $850+ billion extensions and net new taxes. They're so hyped up that they don't even realize that taxing less than we're spending is causing the deficit and greatly increasing the debt. Now that they've had 2 unpaid wars and a trillion dollar drug benefit it will be real tough convincing them that the party is over. It's time to do the responsible think like families all over the globe, if you can't make ends meet it time to get a new job or at least a second one to raise your income. Right after Obama is re-elected next fall, the Bush tax cuts will be going bye bye. So shoot up now your irresponsible junkies, the party's over and it's time to pay the bill.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 11:38:22 GMT -5
i think that social spending and defense should both be cut to close the gap. i am sick and tired of defense NOT being discussed. I don't think that it needs to be discussed. Sorry but congress discusses stuff to death (& does studies, etc). Just cut it 20% & use that 20% to pay down the principal of our national debt. The American people will just have to understand than a few more lives might be lost if we use the military. fewer lives would be lost if the military were smaller, imo. i suspect that this opinion is not widely shared, and that is fine by me. the type of enemy we have now does not maintain armies. small, cellular teams would be far more effective than putting 150k boots on the ground against what is by most people's estimates a problem that is worldwide significantly smaller than that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 11:39:29 GMT -5
LOL...considering its the socialist programs that are causing the capitalist system to failYou need to go back and look at the 2-3 years that preceded every one of the socialist programs. Most of these programs spawned from various market/structure problems. Yes, let's give the drug addicts more heroine and see if they kick the habit personally, i could use a little more heroine in MY life. and a bit more hero, as well.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Aug 2, 2011 11:42:45 GMT -5
The American people will just have to understand than a few more lives might be lost if we use the military.
In fact it might be time to either get rid of the volunteer military or augment it with a cross section of sons and daughters from across the nation. For too long the national security of this country has fallen on the shoulders of a small group of families. More Americans need skin in the game or we'll never break Washington from the feeling like they have to use our military to get the value out of it. At the very least it's time to tell Europe, Japan and South Korea that the need to step up and defend their own countries.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 11:50:46 GMT -5
the deal passed the Senate and is on it's way to Obama for signature.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 2, 2011 11:51:53 GMT -5
The House bill was just approved in the Senate by a vote of 74 to 26. Obama can now sign it and move on to more important things like the 2012 POTUS campaign. We once again fail our children with this joke they call deficit reducing legislation.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 2, 2011 11:54:01 GMT -5
If I use my credit card to pay my mortgage, am I actually paying the bills?
Your mortgage company won't foreclose on you, your credit rating will remain intact, so yes you paid your bill. Good lord, no wonder we're screwed. This is nothing more than debt transfer. Nothing has been paid because you simply shift the debt to a different debt holder.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 11:56:30 GMT -5
The House bill was just approved in the Senate by a vote of 74 to 26. Obama can now sign it and move on to more important things like the 2012 POTUS campaign. We once again fail our children with this joke they call deficit reducing legislation. both sides hate this compromise. therefore, i conclude it is a good one. the meat of the deal is in the second step.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 2, 2011 12:07:33 GMT -5
The House bill was just approved in the Senate by a vote of 74 to 26. Obama can now sign it and move on to more important things like the 2012 POTUS campaign. We once again fail our children with this joke they call deficit reducing legislation. both sides hate this compromise. therefore, i conclude it is a good one.
the meat of the deal is in the second step.Step two: Kick the can again. So, instead of raising debt by $10 trillion over 10 years, We'll "only" raise the debt by $7 trillion. Impressive. The dems can claim victory because they don't get the deep cuts repubs wanted. The repubs can claim victory because there were no tax increases and their biggest contributors get to keep their subsidies. Obama can claim victory because he doesn't have to face this battle again unless he wins reelection. We can claim victory because we don't have to sacrifice our precious social programs. The losers are our children...they get the bill for our lack of fiscal responsibility. Their only hope is to be as stupid as us and continue to elect people who will keep kicking the can on down the road.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Aug 2, 2011 12:12:02 GMT -5
LOL...considering its the socialist programs that are causing the capitalist system to failYou need to go back and look at the 2-3 years that preceded every one of the socialist programs. Most of these programs spawned from various market/structure problems. Yes, let's give the drug addicts more heroine and see if they kick the habit Drug addicts? The drug addicts are the people who decided that it was a good idea to cut taxes to the lowest point in 50 years without an equal cut in spending. Those are the same people who said that those tax cuts would create millions of jobs. Those same people were given another dose of heroine last December in a $850+ billion extensions and net new taxes. They're so hyped up that they don't even realize that taxing less than we're spending is causing the deficit and greatly increasing the debt. Now that they've had 2 unpaid wars and a trillion dollar drug benefit it will be real tough convincing them that the party is over. It's time to do the responsible think like families all over the globe, if you can't make ends meet it time to get a new job or at least a second one to raise your income. Right after Obama is re-elected next fall, the Bush tax cuts will be going bye bye. So shoot up now your irresponsible junkies, the party's over and it's time to pay the bill. Actually the first thing people look at is to STOP THEIR WASTEFUL SPENDING HABITS...there's plenty of waste, abuse, mismanagement, and the like to look at before revenue increases. But that would mean less government jobs, less government spending, less government benefits, stricter government payment terms, and actual sacrifice. The Dems would never go for it...too much effort and it would mean people would have less dependence on government. The HORROR...the HORROR!!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 12:18:10 GMT -5
both sides hate this compromise. therefore, i conclude it is a good one.
the meat of the deal is in the second step.Step two: Kick the can again. So, instead of raising debt by $10 trillion over 10 years, We'll "only" raise the debt by $7 trillion. Impressive. i am having trouble remembering the last time when cuts amounting to 2% of GDP occurred (this is on an annual basis. i think it is about right, but forgive me if i am wrong). i think it was after WW2. but seriously? i am not really concerned if anyone is impressed by the cuts. what i HOPE to see is that the bond rating services are sufficiently satisfied with the efforts that we maintain our credit rating. if we do, then i would judge this a triumph over the immediate issue.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 12:19:53 GMT -5
LOL...considering its the socialist programs that are causing the capitalist system to failYou need to go back and look at the 2-3 years that preceded every one of the socialist programs. Most of these programs spawned from various market/structure problems. Yes, let's give the drug addicts more heroine and see if they kick the habit Drug addicts? The drug addicts are the people who decided that it was a good idea to cut taxes to the lowest point in 50 years without an equal cut in spending. Those are the same people who said that those tax cuts would create millions of jobs. Those same people were given another dose of heroine last December in a $850+ billion extensions and net new taxes. They're so hyped up that they don't even realize that taxing less than we're spending is causing the deficit and greatly increasing the debt. Now that they've had 2 unpaid wars and a trillion dollar drug benefit it will be real tough convincing them that the party is over. It's time to do the responsible think like families all over the globe, if you can't make ends meet it time to get a new job or at least a second one to raise your income. Right after Obama is re-elected next fall, the Bush tax cuts will be going bye bye. So shoot up now your irresponsible junkies, the party's over and it's time to pay the bill. Actually the first thing people look at is to STOP THEIR WASTEFUL SPENDING HABITS...there's plenty of waste, abuse, mismanagement, and the like to look at before revenue increases. But that would mean less government jobs, less government spending, less government benefits, stricter government payment terms, and actual sacrifice. The Dems would never go for it...too much effort and it would mean people would have less dependence on government. The HORROR...the HORROR!! um....dude? i think that is precisely what this bill is.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Aug 2, 2011 12:23:27 GMT -5
Actually the first thing people look at is to STOP THEIR WASTEFUL SPENDING HABITS...there's plenty of waste, abuse, mismanagement, and the like to look at before revenue increases. But that would mean less government jobs, less government spending, less government benefits, stricter government payment terms, and actual sacrifice. The Dems would never go for it...too much effort and it would mean people would have less dependence on government. The HORROR...the HORROR!! um....dude? i think that is precisely what this bill is. Nope...not even close. No wasteful government spending is tackled in this bill, this will not lead to stricter payment terms for government programs/benefits (to cut down on waste, fraud, and abuse), government benefits were not cut at all, and no actual sacrifices will be made. As others have said...it's just business as usual while we kick the can down the road. So, like I said: It's just F*** you kids, and F*** your future...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 12:27:22 GMT -5
um....dude? i think that is precisely what this bill is. Nope...not even close. No wasteful government spending is tackled in this bill, this will not lead to stricter payment terms for government programs/benefits (to cut down on waste, fraud, and abuse), government benefits were not cut at all, and no actual sacrifices will be made. As others have said...it's just business as usual while we kick the can down the road. So, like I said: It's just F*** you kids, and F*** your future... we have been saying that for a generation. that, and greed is good, and you can have it all, now. the only difference now is that people actually seem energized by this issue. that makes me guardedly optimistic.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Aug 2, 2011 12:48:07 GMT -5
The American people will just have to understand than a few more lives might be lost if we use the military. In fact it might be time to either get rid of the volunteer military or augment it with a cross section of sons and daughters from across the nation. For too long the national security of this country has fallen on the shoulders of a small group of families. More Americans need skin in the game or we'll never break Washington from the feeling like they have to use our military to get the value out of it. At the very least it's time to tell Europe, Japan and South Korea that the need to step up and defend their own countries. A draft is old fashion, not in the best interests of the services..however, as far as " skin in the game " , may I suggest..when we go into a conflict for any reason, it is estimated what the increased costs will be and by law..taxes proposed as mandatory to at least cover the initial costs of the conflicts, whether a small one in comparison, such as firing 110 tomahawk into the Libyan country side as we did this year and the costs of sorties, whether in combat or in support..there is the average Americans skin in the game and the military allowed to do it's thing as they feel fit as far as what is best needed in todays military..less grunts on the ground, weapons so much more deadly and accurate..and expensive but less troops needed to use them .. The pocket book costs are enough for the average American to feel pain, and be abble to decide if the sacrifice is needed and they are willing to play the game..
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 2, 2011 13:05:53 GMT -5
IMHO, the only good thing to come out of the House Bill....
Amid the high intrigue of the historic moment, the drama was heightened even further when Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, the Arizona congresswoman wounded in a shooting rampage seven months ago, made a surprise visit to the House floor to cast her vote. Colleagues on both sides of the aisle rushed to embrace her, and Pelosi publicly saluted her courage and resiliency.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Aug 2, 2011 18:35:12 GMT -5
Good lord, no wonder we're screwed. This is nothing more than debt transfer. Nothing has been paid because you simply shift the debt to a different debt holder.
Hopefully you read the rest of #34 where I question why you would want to do such a thing but in technical terms, terms that your mortgage company would agree with, you have paid your month bill to them. This happens every single day, people take out a loan from a new lender to pay off a debt to an old lender, its called refinancing. To the original lender, you have paid your debt in full, even though you still owe money. I agree with your 'good lord' statement, I'm really surprised you don't understand this. Now what happens when you decide that you may have paid too much for your home and instead of figuring out how to deal with it decide that instead you'll just stop paying your mortgage. First thing that will happen is every republican here will call you and irresponsible dead beat. Yet that's what you all wanted the government to do...Good Lord!!!
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Aug 2, 2011 18:35:51 GMT -5
Step two: Kick the can again. So, instead of raising debt by $10 trillion over 10 years, We'll "only" raise the debt by $7 trillion. Impressive. i am having trouble remembering the last time when cuts amounting to 2% of GDP occurred (this is on an annual basis. i think it is about right, but forgive me if i am wrong). i think it was after WW2. but seriously? i am not really concerned if anyone is impressed by the cuts. what i HOPE to see is that the bond rating services are sufficiently satisfied with the efforts that we maintain our credit rating. if we do, then i would judge this a triumph over the immediate issue. D.J., As before.. You have some of the best Post.. Short and straight to the point..K4Y.... Just a thought, Bi Metal Au Pt
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Aug 2, 2011 18:45:16 GMT -5
Actually the first thing people look at is to STOP THEIR WASTEFUL SPENDING HABITS...there's plenty of waste, abuse, mismanagement, and the like to look at before revenue increases. But that would mean less government jobs, less government spending, less government benefits, stricter government payment terms, and actual sacrifice. The Dems would never go for it...too much effort and it would mean people would have less dependence on government. The HORROR...the HORROR!!
Here's the difference between your plan and mine. In your plan you keep taxes where they are and look to people to cut wasteful spending habits. Here's the problem, if they don't cut their wasteful spending habits the deficit gets bigger and bigger and the debt grows out of control.
Now lets look at it the other way. Let the Bush tax cuts expire, extend FICA to all income and cut subsidies for wildly profitable businesses. Now if people don't cut their wasteful habits at least the deficit is much smaller and the growth of the debt slows. However if they do cut their wasteful habits and we start seeing larger tax revenues than spending bills, we have a surplus AND THEN we can cut taxes by an amount equal to additional spending cuts. The problem is that republicans would never go for that because it could actually prove that the Bush tax cuts were a major factor in driving up the debt. They also wouldn't go for it because it flies in the face of the "starve the beast" strategy that's just beginning to show positive results on the dems social agenda.
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Aug 2, 2011 18:47:35 GMT -5
Is it a given that Reid will bring the bill to the floor for a vote? His latest theme has been no. If does pass the Senate and Obama signs it then we are stuck in business as usual. More spent and more debt. Some things never seem to change. handyman: And the worst part is no growth in the economy, as showed in the stock market today. His speech today was another campaign speech saying "we are all in this together" and the thought of high unemployment keeps him awake at night. Oh, right, what about his usual favorite saying, "just a bump in the road". Sorry Mr. Obama, we've heard it all before and believed you the first time, and you are not engaged in any areas of improvement or change for the good of the people? Why in the hell would you start changing now?
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Aug 2, 2011 18:55:19 GMT -5
The pocket book costs are enough for the average American to feel pain, and be abble to decide if the sacrifice is needed and they are willing to play the game..
I don't disagree with paying a supplemental war tax to pay for military action HOWEVER it really bothers me to see the same soldiers deployed and deployed and deployed, over and over and over. IMO it's not right to ask a select few to fight and die while the rest of us just write a check. The Daily Show interviews a medal of honor winner a few weeks ago. The guy had been deployed to Iraq 6 times and to Afghanistan twice. Wounded multiple times, the last time lost a hand throwing an enemy grenade that had landed in the middle of a group of his men. These are special people and the country can't continue to lose them in stupid wars. You can bet these wars would have ended years ago if caskets were coming home to neighborhoods across the country.
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Aug 2, 2011 18:57:48 GMT -5
The American people will just have to understand than a few more lives might be lost if we use the military. In fact it might be time to either get rid of the volunteer military or augment it with a cross section of sons and daughters from across the nation. For too long the national security of this country has fallen on the shoulders of a small group of families. More Americans need skin in the game or we'll never break Washington from the feeling like they have to use our military to get the value out of it. At the very least it's time to tell Europe, Japan and South Korea that the need to step up and defend their own countries. zip: I agree with this post 100%. Just talking to someone last night about the same exact thing. I give you a k for this post
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Aug 2, 2011 18:59:42 GMT -5
Some ideologues keep repeating that the current debt load imposes a burden of hundreds of thousands of dollars upon each of today's children. TRhat being the case, then those who are childless do no such thing... while those who have numerous children create millions of dollars of debt. Anti birth control = pro debt accumulation!
Now, more than ever, we can see the obvious insanity of those virulently opposed to other people's right to terminate unwanted pregnancies.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2011 19:31:29 GMT -5
i am having trouble remembering the last time when cuts amounting to 2% of GDP occurred (this is on an annual basis. i think it is about right, but forgive me if i am wrong). i think it was after WW2. but seriously? i am not really concerned if anyone is impressed by the cuts. what i HOPE to see is that the bond rating services are sufficiently satisfied with the efforts that we maintain our credit rating. if we do, then i would judge this a triumph over the immediate issue. D.J., As before.. You have some of the best Post.. Short and straight to the point..K4Y.... Just a thought, Bi Metal Au Pt thanks. on a side note, Moody's maintained our rating. S&P will be under a lot of pressure to do the same.
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