djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 21, 2011 14:35:25 GMT -5
just in case you can't understand what you read.......and need to see it again........ If the government fails to raise its borrowing limit by Aug. 2, the impact on consumers could be deep and wide-ranging, from rising interest rates to a stock market sell-off.
i see it just the opposite (long term)[/b]
If the government raises its borrowing limit by Aug. 2, the impact on consumers could be deep and wide-ranging, from rising interest rates to a stock market sell-off.who said anything about one week? i did. i don't place bets that i can't collect quickly. in or out? i will assume "out" if were going long.
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Post by maui1 on Jul 21, 2011 14:36:50 GMT -5
i agree..........that our markets have changed fundamentally, from being a forecaster of things to come, to that of a reactionary, forecaster of the day.
maybe it is due to all the individual investors that have investment managers chasing the highest return, no matter the risk.
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Post by maui1 on Jul 21, 2011 14:39:11 GMT -5
just because the market reacts to the days events, does nothing to determine the value of what it is reacting to.
gee.......just this week, should tell you the market does not know which way is up.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 21, 2011 15:00:03 GMT -5
Also, to add to my point about the Federal Reserve buying a large percentage of our debt, you know what they do with the interest they get from that debt? They turn around and give it back to the treasury. Seems a little fishy
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 21, 2011 16:16:58 GMT -5
...the fed IS fishy...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 21, 2011 16:26:56 GMT -5
just because the market reacts to the days events, does nothing to determine the value of what it is reacting to. gee.......just this week, should tell you the market does not know which way is up. so, what do you think about the fact that the market is up hugely since Obama took office 2.5 years ago?
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 21, 2011 16:30:38 GMT -5
just because the market reacts to the days events, does nothing to determine the value of what it is reacting to. gee.......just this week, should tell you the market does not know which way is up. As you know the market is just one of many leading economic indicators...others such as the unemployment rate, interest rates, inflation rates, and etc are not that positive so in layman's terms we have a mixed bag and only Economic Forecasters can determine which way our economy will be headed in the next two years. And they seem to be indicating a stagnant economy or slow growth with high unemployment..
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 21, 2011 16:37:14 GMT -5
Fairly I am not here to pick and choose..basically, they must raise the debt cealing or we will have years of bad stuff happening..to allow us to go into defalt , it will be of little consequenc who is at fault, I don't really think those lost on the Titanic where thinking as the ship slid beneath the waves as they sang the last hymn who the hell was at fault.. ...and, again, this ship is sinking as is... the question is how long it will take before it cannot be 'saved' despite intervention... again, i think this is a good question to ask, but you keep pretending as if it is hypothetical. it isn't. the ship will continue sinking until such a time as we can't afford to keep it afloat. that point is WELL BEYOND where we are, in terms of debt.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 21, 2011 16:46:48 GMT -5
...and, again, this ship is sinking as is... the question is how long it will take before it cannot be 'saved' despite intervention... again, i think this is a good question to ask, but you keep pretending as if it is hypothetical. it isn't. the ship will continue sinking until such a time as we can't afford to keep it afloat. that point is WELL BEYOND where we are, in terms of debt. The so called "Ship of State" began to take on water on 15 January 2009 when Obama was sworn in as our President and Commander in Chief, and since then the water has begun to tilt the Ship to the left and it may not be able to right itself by 2012...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 21, 2011 17:41:40 GMT -5
again, i think this is a good question to ask, but you keep pretending as if it is hypothetical. it isn't. the ship will continue sinking until such a time as we can't afford to keep it afloat. that point is WELL BEYOND where we are, in terms of debt. The so called "Ship of State" began to take on water on 15 January 2009 when Obama was sworn in as our President and Commander in Chief, and since then the water has begun to tilt the Ship to the left and it may not be able to right itself by 2012... sorry, PI, but i call BS on this one. this is almost Straussian in it's simplicity. you can do better. the ship of state began to take on water in 2007, when the RE bubble collapsed and the derivatives mess followed it. matters really started coming unglued in 2008, and the crisis reached it's peak in the first quarter of 2009, just after Obama was sworn in. THERE IS NOT A THING OBAMA COULD HAVE DONE THAT WOULD HAVE PREVENTED IT. now, what he has done since that time is a matter for honest debate.
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strider
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Post by strider on Jul 21, 2011 17:53:51 GMT -5
Obama was sworn in on the 20th of January. Revisionist history is amazing.
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strider
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Post by strider on Jul 21, 2011 17:55:14 GMT -5
Also the recession started in 2007. Still prime Bush time.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 21, 2011 18:08:43 GMT -5
Also the recession started in 2007. Still prime Bush time. very much. i see the GOP blaming the recession on the newly elected Democratic congress- as if the USS USA can be turned in a period of months. hardly.
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 21, 2011 18:10:58 GMT -5
Obama was sworn in on the 20th of January. ... That was a tough one for this old Yeoman to resist but I did. ;D
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 21, 2011 18:12:31 GMT -5
Obama was sworn in on the 20th of January. ... That was a tough one for this old Yeoman to resist but I did. ;D yeah. i have to admit, i considered it, as well. but passed. i think the CBO predicted that the deficit would be $1.2T on 1/15/09, tho.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 21, 2011 18:13:01 GMT -5
Also the recession started in 2007. Still prime Bush time. Still it is all of Bush's fault??? That ole dog wont hunt anymore..
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 21, 2011 18:15:40 GMT -5
Obama was sworn in on the 20th of January. ... That was a tough one for this old Yeoman to resist but I did. ;D You just got beat by a better Nit Picker.... those things happen from time to time.. I stand by my comment that our Ship of State began to take on water the day that Obama took over the helm...even a Yeoman would know that basic factoid, I think...?? Checkout the unemployment rate on 15 - 20 January 2009 and then check out what it is now and then blame Bush if you want but that is BS...IMHO
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 21, 2011 19:00:23 GMT -5
That was a tough one for this old Yeoman to resist but I did. ;D You just got beat by a better Nit Picker.... those things happen from time to time.. I stand by my comment that our Ship of State began to take on water the day that Obama took over the helm...even a Yeoman would know that basic factoid, I think...?? Checkout the unemployment rate on 15 - 20 January 2009 and then check out what it is now and then blame Bush if you want but that is BS...IMHO I don't blame Bush. I blame the American people who voted for Reagan in 1980. The later half of the seventies was when we started to take on water. We needed to seriously address the structural problems with our economy then. Instead we told ourselves that everything American was great and pulled out the credit card. That is why we are where we are today. IM(not so) HO of course.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 21, 2011 19:11:33 GMT -5
Our elected officials just don't want to take on cutting entitlements if they want to get re elected.. And the Repubs signed the Grover Norquist Pledge to never vote of tax increases... But if blaming Bush or Regan is your thing then I can deal with it but it doesn't make much sense to me...
Btw you might want to checkout Grover Norquist because this guy does seem to have a lot of influence among the Rebubs in congress...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 21, 2011 20:07:08 GMT -5
Our elected officials just don't want to take on cutting entitlements if they want to get re elected.. And the Repubs signed the Grover Norquist Pledge to never vote of tax increases... But if blaming Bush or Regan is your thing then I can deal with it but it doesn't make much sense to me... Btw you might want to checkout Grover Norquist because this guy does seem to have a lot of influence among the Rebubs in congress... i know Grover "small enough to drown in a bathtub" Nordquist quite well. he is an anarchist, and a Randian feudalist, as far as i can tell. and his influence scares the living crap out of me.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 22, 2011 0:46:10 GMT -5
...and, again, this ship is sinking as is... the question is how long it will take before it cannot be 'saved' despite intervention... again, i think this is a good question to ask, but you keep pretending as if it is hypothetical. it isn't. the ship will continue sinking until such a time as we can't afford to keep it afloat. that point is WELL BEYOND where we are, in terms of debt. ...I don't pretend this is hypothetical... not sure why you think I do... ...and to continue the Titanic analogy... imo, no way can we discuss things "in terms of debt," just as it wasn't only the iceberg to doom her...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2011 10:53:53 GMT -5
Here is why the stock market is up: currency devaluation. the SP500/USD ratio reached it's peak in 2006. commodities were low in 2006, but rallied until just before Obama won the presidency, then collapsed. they are now about 20% higher than they were at that time- about the same as the core rate of inflation- and about 2/3 what they were at the peak in 2008. i don't really know how that compares to the USD, but i know the dollar's range has been much smaller than that. commodities fell nearly 50% between 2008 and 2009 on a dollar basis.
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Post by maui1 on Jul 22, 2011 11:27:46 GMT -5
so, what do you think about the fact that the market is up hugely since Obama took office 2.5 years ago?
really?.......i didn't think anyone would ever ask this question........ever! from a low of 6000, anything up from there, until its back to 14000, is still down. geeezzz
As you know the market is just one of many leading economic indicators...
it doesn't reflect anything today, but it's own DAILY direction. haven't you been looking at the daily moves? what can you gleam from them, other than confirmation that the market is as lost as most of us are.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2011 12:50:19 GMT -5
so, what do you think about the fact that the market is up hugely since Obama took office 2.5 years ago? really?.......i didn't think anyone would ever ask this question........ever! from a low of 6000, anything up from there, until its back to 14000, is still down. geeezzz the dow is up about 50% since Obama took office, maui. if that is down for you, that explains why we argue so much. geez is right.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Jul 22, 2011 13:15:01 GMT -5
I don't blame Bush. I blame the American people who voted for Reagan in 1980. The later half of the seventies was when we started to take on water. We needed to seriously address the structural problems with our economy then. Instead we told ourselves that everything American was great and pulled out the credit card. That is why we are where we are today. IM(not so) HO of course.
agree
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Post by rockon on Jul 22, 2011 13:25:10 GMT -5
This "who's fault is it" argument is getting much older and has even less validity then the "where was he born" threads. It should be noted that neither George or Barack have a dictatorship or ultimate power. In both cases they were forced to work and make decisions alongside their most hated partners in crime. So almost all decisions and the ultimate direction of this country has been determined by the combination of these two power hungry,greedy parties and have been supported in the election by "sheeple" who blindly follow and believe what these people say. The blame game so many keep falling for is in their playbook. Would lawyers survive if everyone got along and resolved their differences in a manner that even our children are taught to do?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2011 15:00:55 GMT -5
...and, again, this ship is sinking as is... the question is how long it will take before it cannot be 'saved' despite intervention... I'd liken leaving the debt ceiling where it is to closing the water-tight doors on the Titanic to prevent it from sinking. Yes, those trapped below will die (or go bankrupt in this case), but many more will be saved than if the doors were left open and folks were sent to the life boats. i am getting tired of the Titanic analogy. that was a catastrophic failure. what we have here is a slow leak. what is upsetting about it is that, rather than making a plan, or hiring a welder (assuming a metal hull), we are all standing around discussing how long it will take to drown.
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Post by maui1 on Jul 22, 2011 15:24:15 GMT -5
the dow is up about 50% since Obama took office, maui
and everything else is down since he took office. i am glad that something can be interpreted as "being up", even if it is what it is.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 22, 2011 15:29:33 GMT -5
the dow is up about 50% since Obama took office, mauiand everything else is down since he took office. i am glad that something can be interpreted as "being up", even if it is what it is. really? the deficit is up. seriously tho. everything? are corporate profits down?
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Post by Driftr on Jul 22, 2011 15:58:06 GMT -5
I'd liken leaving the debt ceiling where it is to closing the water-tight doors on the Titanic to prevent it from sinking. Yes, those trapped below will die (or go bankrupt in this case), but many more will be saved than if the doors were left open and folks were sent to the life boats. i am getting tired of the Titanic analogy. that was a catastrophic failure. what we have here is a slow leak. what is upsetting about it is that, rather than making a plan, or hiring a welder (assuming a metal hull), we are all standing around discussing how long it will take to drown. As am I. But if it helps Dezi to put things in those terms, I try to help him as best I can. I do agree that we've had a slow leak that started in the 80's. I believe it is past the point where a welder can come in and fix the hole, but if there's one that's good enough to get the job done, I hope he can be put to work quick. Whatever it takes to save the SS USA is fine by me.
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