ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Jul 16, 2011 7:44:23 GMT -5
GOP rejects trading one tax cut for another By Steve Benen Last week, Democrats in debt-reduction talks focused much of their attention on unnecessary and unpopular tax giveaways. If Republicans want a compromise that cuts the debt without raising tax rates, Dems said, they can start by scrapping tax expenditures that help corporate-jet owners. The response from GOP leaders was fierce and unyielding. The only way Republicans would even consider ending these tax breaks, they said, is if the savings were applied to other tax breaks. In other words, Republicans opposed the Democratic effort to apply savings to debt reduction — the issue conservatives pretend to care about — because more tax cuts remain the top GOP priority. Yesterday, President Obama reportedly put this to the test. Mr. Obama suggested in Thursday’s meeting that leaders end tax breaks for ethanol producers, oil and gas companies and corporate jet owners, and offset those tax increases with an extension of the payroll tax credit for employees, a Democratic official familiar with the meeting said, but Republicans said they would not support it. This is fascinating. Obama was willing to trade needless tax subsidies, some of which even Republicans don’t like, for a separate tax cut that benefits private employers. This is, as of last week, exactly the kind of deal GOP leaders said they were inclined to support. But when the president put it on the table, and set up the deal exactly as Republicans want it, they still said no. And remember, a payroll tax cut is the GOP’s preferred approach to job creation. As Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) argued last week, “If they oppose even something so suited to their tastes ideologically, it shows that they’re just opposing anything that helps create jobs. It almost makes you wonder if they aren’t trying to slow down the economic recovery for political gain.” www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_07/gop_rejects_trading_one_tax_cu030882.php?page=all&print=true
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 16, 2011 8:25:10 GMT -5
Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. Oh, you can bank on the tax increases-- but the spending cuts will never come. Because Democrats LIE. The Democrats pulled a similar maneuver during Ronald Reagan’s presidency, a deal that promised 2-to-1 spending cuts in exchange for tax increases. Taxes went up, but the cuts never came. They did it again in 1990, promising much the same deal, and delivering only on their tax increases.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Jul 16, 2011 8:43:58 GMT -5
Once again, cuts were made to many programs. The increased military spending way overshadowed them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 9:27:56 GMT -5
Dems said, they can start by scrapping tax expenditures that help corporate-jet owners.
I agree that a lot of those specialty tax breaks should go away. I believe that special interest groups got them added using both parties to sponsor them. (So both parties are guilty of passing them). I don't agree that all of them added together will equal any meaningful amount compared to what our government spends. I think both parties know that & that example is just being used as a slight of hand trick to get people looking somewhere else instead of the main problems. Sadly a lot of stupid people will fall for it & think that it's an important issue. It's not & stuff like that should be cut but don't get side tracked by it, watch the important issues.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jul 16, 2011 10:11:57 GMT -5
Good gosh. Does anybody here actually know what the "corporate jet owner subsidy" is that Obama wants to cut?
If that's what he walked out of a meeting over, and is daring the Republicans not to call his bluff over , and what he wants people believe he's serious about, with the country's financial health is disorder, , it's a slam dunk that we're lost already should just fold our tent and wait for the end.
I ask it again: Does anybody "really" know what he's in such a tizzy over?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2011 10:15:41 GMT -5
Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. what a brilliant negotiating tactic. assume that your opponent is not negotiating in good faith, and simply demand it all. i seriously hope there is retribution for this next year.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2011 10:16:55 GMT -5
Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. Oh, you can bank on the tax increases-- but the spending cuts will never come. Because Democrats LIE. The Democrats pulled a similar maneuver during Ronald Reagan’s presidency, a deal that promised 2-to-1 spending cuts in exchange for tax increases. Taxes went up, but the cuts never came. They did it again in 1990, promising much the same deal, and delivering only on their tax increases. Paul- are you aware that you are lying about several key points here? are you a Democrat, Paul?
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Jul 16, 2011 12:01:44 GMT -5
I really don't get all the attention and hub bub that has been made over this one thing either.Many subsidies have been brought up, including oil, ethanol, farm, loopholes for hedgefund managers, but all the attention by the media has been on this.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Jul 16, 2011 16:45:38 GMT -5
If the depreciation on the private jets is not needed, then why did Obama put it in his stimulus bill in the first place?
Interesting how the MSM isn't telling you that!
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Jul 16, 2011 16:57:53 GMT -5
Of course, only repubs are people of good faith, never lie, and are thinking only of the American people. If that were so the prior 8 years would have made the country boom and not left a deficit that we are still trying to recover from. Thought all those bush tax cuts were going to make the employer jump out with tons of new jobs? And Obama traded extended UE benefits for extending those worthless cuts. Wow, what ignorance. Every person out there who keeps whining about the Bush tax cuts needs to read the CBO numbers which show, in black and white, that following the 2003 tax that revenues not only reverse a two to three year decline but actually SURGED! The claim that the Bush tax cuts created or worsened a deficit is simply absurd. Indeed, between the 2007 budget (last budget passed by Bush and a GOP Congress) and Obama's budgets, we have seen the deficit literally increase 10 fold from 160 billion to 1.6 TRILLION even though there has not NO MAJOR TAX RATE CHANGES!!!! It's not the tax cuts, it's the SPENDING STUPID! Tax revenue has not dropped by about 1.4 trillion dollars but instead Obama and the Democrats have blown spending through the roof!!!! I've heard the number tossed around that if the Bush tax cuts were removed (not sure on the top 2% or all) that in THEORY (and completely defying historical evidence) we would raise 800 billion over ten years or roughly 80 billion/year. This is a mere 5% of the deficit! I don't know if liberals are ignorant or just so ballsy that they can lie through their teeth when they claim that more taxes will fix the deficit and debt despite the very basic math that shows otherwise. Despite claims to the contrary, we are perhaps the most taxed that we have ever been except for perhaps WW2. Consider not only the federal government multiple taxes (income, SS, FICA) but also those on state, city, and local levels. Talk to older people and ask them how taxes and fees on all levels have gone up. Check out your utility bills- lots of taxes and fees there! INSANE!!!
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Jul 16, 2011 17:00:19 GMT -5
Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. what a brilliant negotiating tactic. assume that your opponent is not negotiating in good faith, and simply demand it all. i seriously hope there is retribution for this next year. I hope so too, when Obama and his crew are tossed out and then the GOP has to fix his messed. Most people would rather be living under Bush's era than Obama's when unemployment was lower, houses were worth more, and both spending and the deficit were much, much lower. I fail to understand this condemnation on the GOP for refusing to compromise. If someone jumps you and he offers to just break one of your limbs, are you going to compromise? NO! You're going to grab the nearest heavy object and brain him! The GOP and others understand that it's not a lack of taxes that created this debt and deficit but the spending. Again, most tax rates have remained constant since 2003 yet the deficit has gone up by an order of magnitude from 2007 to today. Any intelligent person can therefore see that it's not tax rates causing the issue but spending. Really, it's so easy even a liberal should understand it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2011 17:08:24 GMT -5
what a brilliant negotiating tactic. assume that your opponent is not negotiating in good faith, and simply demand it all. i seriously hope there is retribution for this next year. I hope so too, when Obama and his crew are tossed out and then the GOP has to fix his messed. Most people would rather be living under Bush's era than Obama's when unemployment was lower, houses were worth more, and both spending and the deficit were much, much lower. I fail to understand this condemnation on the GOP for refusing to compromise. If someone jumps you and he offers to just break one of your limbs, are you going to compromise? NO! You're going to grab the nearest heavy object and brain him! you had me until this analogy. i fail to see how offering a budget that cuts $4 for every $1 in taxes is the equivalent of breaking anyone's legs OTHER than Democrats. the GOP is insane to pass on it. they could wear that feather proudly in their caps, if they weren't so obsessed with Obama.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2011 17:14:48 GMT -5
The GOP and others understand that it's not a lack of taxes that created this debt and deficit but the spending. Again, most tax rates have remained constant since 2003 yet the deficit has gone up by an order of magnitude from 2007 to today. Any intelligent person can therefore see that it's not tax rates causing the issue but spending. Really, it's so easy even a liberal should understand it. nice little condescending bitchslap to end your post. like that does anyone a lot of good. don't know why conservatives have to belittle liberals all the time. it is not going to bring them around, you know? but you are wrong about revenues. declining revenues are a big part of the problem. the historical average for revenues is about 18% of GDP we are currently at 14.4%, which is extremely low. the difference is about $500B in budgetary terms, or about 1/3 of the deficit. don't discount it. it is a disadvantage that Bush never had to face. it would be a shame if people didn't recognize these facts, but i suspect they won't. they are so used to being lied to, they will believe anything.
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Jul 16, 2011 17:51:41 GMT -5
the fact is that we are toast because most of the true wealth creating activities have gone silent in the US. The only thing that creates new wealth (which is required to retire debt) is value added activities ... manufacturing, construction, agriculture, mining, etc ..... construction is in the tank because of the busted housing bubble and corporate chieftains moved a large part of manufacturing to Asia because Americans can't/won't work for Asian wages
We are and will be toast until manufacturing moves back to the US
Henry Ford who had much to do with initiating assembly line manufacturing had the wisdom to realize that he had to pay his employees decent wages or they would not be able to buy the product that he was selling ... current corporate chieftains missed that fact .. so they toasted us
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2011 18:32:29 GMT -5
the fact is that we are toast because most of the true wealth creating activities have gone silent in the US. The only thing that creates new wealth (which is required to retire debt) is value added activities ... manufacturing, construction, agriculture, mining, etc ..... construction is in the tank because of the busted housing bubble and corporate chieftains moved a large part of manufacturing to Asia because Americans can't/won't work for Asian wages We are and will be toast until manufacturing moves back to the US Henry Ford who had much to do with initiating assembly line manufacturing had the wisdom to realize that he had to pay his employees decent wages or they would not be able to buy the product that he was selling ... current corporate chieftains missed that fact .. so they toasted us i agree with you about 65% here. but mining is red hot right now, and Manufacturing is comparatively healthy right now.
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Jul 16, 2011 19:27:58 GMT -5
<<i agree with you about 65% here. but mining is red hot right now, and Manufacturing is comparatively healthy right now>>
Manufacturing that is active is healthy .. the manufacturing company where I work is running 24-7. Thee problem is all the manufacturing that has moved offshore. Look at the shelves in stores and notice how many products are made in Asia. 30 years ago, most were made in the US. Hence, we have high unemployment. Jobs in government and service jobs depend on people being employed in value added activities to create new wealth. Service and government jobs don't create wealth .. they just participate in a wealth transfer when wealth creators buy services and pay taxes to support the government
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 16, 2011 19:32:54 GMT -5
"Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. Oh, you can bank on the tax increases-- but the spending cuts will never come. Because Democrats LIE. "
Horse shit.
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Jul 16, 2011 19:48:00 GMT -5
<<Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. Oh, you can bank on the tax increases-- but the spending cuts will never come. Because Democrats LIE. ">>
Perhaps you might be a bit more explicit ... just seems like cheap name calling instead of an intellect backed discussion
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 16, 2011 20:00:49 GMT -5
"Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. Oh, you can bank on the tax increases-- but the spending cuts will never come. Because Democrats LIE. " Horse shit. Horse shit based on what? The record is clear. Are you challenging the record? Do you have facts to refute the record? Democrats are untrustworthy on this very compromise because they've broken faith with us on ALL previous occasions. In fact, I'm so confident that Democrats are lying that I would be willing to accept the deal they're offering on one condition-- tax hikes must be delayed until 12 months AFTER SPENDING CUTS ARE IMPLEMENTED.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 16, 2011 20:09:37 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 16, 2011 20:12:18 GMT -5
Ultimately, the US must stop borrowing money- or it will inevitably hit its credit limit. We must cut spending by 42%. This Democrat fantasy that we can raise taxes enough to boost revenues by 42% required to balance the budget-- is just that: fantasy. It's never going to happen. The fact is, we have a spending crisis, not a crisis of low taxes.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 16, 2011 20:15:37 GMT -5
"Democrats are not negotiating in good faith. They are LYING. We know this because they ALWAYS LIE about spending cuts. Oh, you can bank on the tax increases-- but the spending cuts will never come. Because Democrats LIE. " Horse shit. Horse shit based on what? The record is clear. Are you challenging the record? Do you have facts to refute the record? Democrats are untrustworthy on this very compromise because they've broken faith with us on ALL previous occasions. In fact, I'm so confident that Democrats are lying that I would be willing to accept the deal they're offering on one condition-- tax hikes must be delayed until 12 months AFTER SPENDING CUTS ARE IMPLEMENTED. Look. Both sides have had their share of lies, back room deals, cover ups, so on and so forth. It really isn't productive at this point to call the other side liars based on what other folks who were members of the party did years ago. It really doesn't. It's like bringing up that old chestnut about the KKK being started by democrats. It's just useless and serves no purpose but to divide people further. Now if that's your game, and if that's your hope, I really feel sorry for you and there isn't much else to discuss.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2011 20:53:24 GMT -5
Ultimately, the US must stop borrowing money- or it will inevitably hit its credit limit. We must cut spending by 42%. . that is totally false. the example i would use is the 90's.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2011 20:54:30 GMT -5
<<i agree with you about 65% here. but mining is red hot right now, and Manufacturing is comparatively healthy right now>> Manufacturing that is active is healthy .. the manufacturing company where I work is running 24-7. Thee problem is all the manufacturing that has moved offshore. i thought i heard that the US leads the world in manufacturing, still. is that false?
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Jul 17, 2011 3:03:46 GMT -5
The GOP and others understand that it's not a lack of taxes that created this debt and deficit but the spending. Again, most tax rates have remained constant since 2003 yet the deficit has gone up by an order of magnitude from 2007 to today. Any intelligent person can therefore see that it's not tax rates causing the issue but spending. Really, it's so easy even a liberal should understand it. nice little condescending bitchslap to end your post. like that does anyone a lot of good. don't know why conservatives have to belittle liberals all the time. it is not going to bring them around, you know? but you are wrong about revenues. declining revenues are a big part of the problem. the historical average for revenues is about 18% of GDP we are currently at 14.4%, which is extremely low. the difference is about $500B in budgetary terms, or about 1/3 of the deficit. don't discount it. it is a disadvantage that Bush never had to face. it would be a shame if people didn't recognize these facts, but i suspect they won't. they are so used to being lied to, they will believe anything. Liberals need to be bitch slapped since it's their foolishness that has brought this nation to its knees. Right next to them should be the MSM who covers up this fact. Regarding declining revenue, I can check some revenue numbers BUT you have failed to notice or comment upon: 1. this supposed drop is revenue is clearly NOT due to tax rates since the tax rates are roughly the same as they were with Bush yet Bush, by your own words, did not have to deal with this. 2. Even accepting a possibly 500 billion falloff (I don't), there is still 1.1 trillion overspending issue and it can be laid squarely at Obama's feet. 5 trillion in debt since he has come into office and we have NOTHING to show for it! 3. Regarding being condescending to liberals, hey I'm just following May Allah Bless His Name Barack Hussien Obama who betlittles EVERYONE who disagrees with him or comes into his crosshairs: 1. Doctors are hacking off limbs for more money 2. Those evil mean bankers are the ones who destroyed the economy as opposed to the DEMOCRATS and ACORN who strongarmed those banks into those loans 3. People who are sick of government spending and taxation are just racists 4. the GOP who is falsely blamed for the bad economy has to get "in the back" since Obama is driving 5. He has his foot on the throat of BP and he's gonna kick some ass and bring a gun to a knife fight around the same time that he invites to the White House a rapper who wants to kill cops. etc.... oh and THEN he states that he wants "civility" in the discourse.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Jul 17, 2011 3:05:54 GMT -5
Horse shit based on what? The record is clear. Are you challenging the record? Do you have facts to refute the record? Democrats are untrustworthy on this very compromise because they've broken faith with us on ALL previous occasions. In fact, I'm so confident that Democrats are lying that I would be willing to accept the deal they're offering on one condition-- tax hikes must be delayed until 12 months AFTER SPENDING CUTS ARE IMPLEMENTED. Look. Both sides have had their share of lies, back room deals, cover ups, so on and so forth. It really isn't productive at this point to call the other side liars based on what other folks who were members of the party did years ago. It really doesn't. It's like bringing up that old chestnut about the KKK being started by democrats. It's just useless and serves no purpose but to divide people further. Now if that's your game, and if that's your hope, I really feel sorry for you and there isn't much else to discuss. Bringing up that the Democrats started the KKK is bad? Really? I'd think it would be useful to let African Americans realize that they are cozying up with the party of slavery, lynching, Jim Crow, and re-enslavement via welfare and destruction of the African American family. Heck, given how some African Americans STILL whine about slavery and reperations, they sound like the really like history!
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 17, 2011 4:08:13 GMT -5
Look. Both sides have had their share of lies, back room deals, cover ups, so on and so forth. It really isn't productive at this point to call the other side liars based on what other folks who were members of the party did years ago. It really doesn't. It's like bringing up that old chestnut about the KKK being started by democrats. It's just useless and serves no purpose but to divide people further. Now if that's your game, and if that's your hope, I really feel sorry for you and there isn't much else to discuss. Bringing up that the Democrats started the KKK is bad? Really? I'd think it would be useful to let African Americans realize that they are cozying up with the party of slavery, lynching, Jim Crow, and re-enslavement via welfare and destruction of the African American family. Heck, given how some African Americans STILL whine about slavery and reperations, they sound like the really like history! I'd like to say something here about reading comprehension, but I get the impression that would be completely pointless.
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Jul 17, 2011 5:49:56 GMT -5
reading some of the extremist views here is probably the same garbage that is happening right now in the halls of Congress.... why can't the two parties give and take for the better of the country as a whole... why all the my way or the highway and chest thumping.... pure motivation to stir up the extremist on both sides, while we in the middle suffer.....
I say fire them all next election cycle and start fresh... and the first order of business should be term limits at every level......
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 17, 2011 6:56:53 GMT -5
Horse shit based on what? The record is clear. Are you challenging the record? Do you have facts to refute the record? Democrats are untrustworthy on this very compromise because they've broken faith with us on ALL previous occasions. In fact, I'm so confident that Democrats are lying that I would be willing to accept the deal they're offering on one condition-- tax hikes must be delayed until 12 months AFTER SPENDING CUTS ARE IMPLEMENTED. Look. Both sides have had their share of lies, back room deals, cover ups, so on and so forth. It really isn't productive at this point to call the other side liars based on what other folks who were members of the party did years ago. It really doesn't. It's like bringing up that old chestnut about the KKK being started by democrats. It's just useless and serves no purpose but to divide people further. Now if that's your game, and if that's your hope, I really feel sorry for you and there isn't much else to discuss. Nice attempt at deflection. We aren't talking about bygones. Democrats are guilty TODAY of wildly reckless spending. It was the last Congress controlled by Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi and signed into law by President Obama that spent more money than every previous administration from George Washington to George W. Bush. It's THIS PRESIDENT whose current proposal borrows $1.67 trillion IN THE NEXT FISCAL YEAR. And he wants approval for that in exchange for $4 trillion in phony baloney 'cuts' over the next TEN YEARS and a tax increase to boot? HELL NO!!! Because we know Democrats are OBSESSED with raising taxes and SPENDING MONEY we don't have. NO WAY we trust them on this deal.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 17, 2011 12:42:16 GMT -5
"Nice attempt at deflection."
Gee thanks, I mean I appreciate the compliment and all, but trust me when I say as evidenced by this thread, you are far superior in your own "defllection" skills.
Let us all know when you are done playing the blame game.
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