Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 26, 2011 10:58:08 GMT -5
"You guys are pretty harsh. It is easy to manipulate young people with a head full of dreams. It is very, very easy for these schools to sell these kids a bill of goods and convince their parents of the great life "investment". And, we now have parents mortgaging homes and all that they have so junior can go to college."
I agree with Snerdley. While 18-20 year olds SHOULD know better and make good decisions that will affect the rest of their lives, many of them don't have the life experience necessary to do so. They turn to parents, guidance counselors, teachers and help make their decisions for them.
Most of us are blaming them with the benefit of some (or a lot of) our adult life behind us. While being 18 years of age means you are an adult, it doesn't mean you are able to make adult decisions. An 18 year old who has likely never worked a "real job" been supported by mom and dad for most of their life doesn't have the concept of money that you and I have. They're often sold a bill of goods by adults that they think care about them that a degree is the only path to success.
It's a challenge every person has to face. "What am I going to do with my life." While college may not be the answer to everyone, the job market now and in the future will demand SOME education past high school. There just aren't good jobs out there for unskilled labor anymore. At 18, you're forced to make decisions that will affect the rest of your life without the benefit of any real life experience.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 26, 2011 11:03:53 GMT -5
I went to a state school. It wasn't a "big name" state school but had a decent reputation. My parents paid for most of it, but I graduated with a B.S in physics in 2007 with about 4k in debt. According to these boards and articles I read, physics majors graduate into well paying jobs. However I started out making 30k as a technician trainee in southern Maine, about an hour from Boston. After three and a half years I make more than double that at 73k. In three more years I'll make 85k. So I think my degree was worth it. In the beginning it was a hard pill to swallow that I had done college for for four years and made less than the apprentices starting right out of high school, but it worked out in the end.
I'm planning on returning to grad school. I plan on working full time at my current job and doing it part time. I don't anticipate any debt. I'll be going to a state school that has a reputation as one of the best health physics programs in the country.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 26, 2011 11:49:52 GMT -5
Two youthful follies, thank you very much.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jun 26, 2011 12:28:40 GMT -5
Could Phil weigh in on this aspect???
Quote:I graduated from one of the top engineering schools in the nation, thinking my starting salary would be between $70,000 and $80,000 a year. Quote:Um, Kettering University isn't even among the top engineering programs in Michigan, let alone top overall. The guy could have gotten a more prestigious degree from Michigan, Michigan State or Michigan Tech for a fraction of that $185k. Kettering is a good school and all, but the guys sounds like an idiot. I'm going with 'idiot'. At the engineering corporations that I worked at for 35 yrs, a BS Engineer from an accredited university was fungible - there was very little distinction between a State U engr and an MIT engr, the starting salaries were roughly the same. And after about 3 yrs of experience, your salary was performance-based, the State guy could be the MIT guys boss by then - well, maybe not quite. When we put a man on the moon, we had MS Ivy engrs and "2 yr CC/2 yr State" BS engrs on the same Lunar Landing project making the same money. IMO, a name-school is important in Law, somewhat important in Medicine, somewhat in B-school - and almost not-at-all in engineering.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2011 17:45:02 GMT -5
I'll agree with Phil that the name schools aren't important in certain professions. Yes, Vanderbilt has a fantastic school of education. But you will make what every other first year teacher makes when you graduate. You won't even necessarily get preference in hiring (except maybe in TN; I don't work there).
Everyone in Alabama knows the "teacher colleges" in Alabama. Jacksonville State University and the University of Montevallo are where the vast majority of teachers and (more importantly) administrators are trained in our state. So a degree from there, which is much cheaper than from the University of Alabama or Auburn (which are still state schools), will get you hired just as quickly.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 26, 2011 17:51:26 GMT -5
SouthernSusana, my mom's BFF's daughter is a senior at Auburn, majoring in early childhood education - she already has $100K in debt and a year to go She LOVES Auburn, and I have no doubt she'll be a wonderful teacher, but dang!
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 26, 2011 19:49:16 GMT -5
...fwiw, I did one part "pay as you go," one part "parents helped," and one part SLs for undergrad... then I did one part "pay as you go" and one part "scholarships/grants" for grad school... ...while I have not made salaries anywhere close to the latest and greatest equations to determine how much to spend on school, I view my overall education to be a major contributor to my overall quality of life... ...and since I like my life, I'm satisfied with my school costs...
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jun 26, 2011 20:51:20 GMT -5
...while I have not made salaries anywhere close to the latest and greatest equations to determine how much to spend on school, I view my overall education to be a major contributor to my overall quality of life... ...and since I like my life, I'm satisfied with my school costs... this this this!
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IPAfan
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Post by IPAfan on Jun 26, 2011 22:25:08 GMT -5
Phil, "IMO, a name-school is important in Law, somewhat important in Medicine, somewhat in B-school - and almost not-at-all in engineering." I think I disagree with you. I think name-school is paramount for Business (because MBA's are a dime a dozen). My friends tell me that medicine is more about the residency you go to than the actual med school. I've got a close friend who went to a state U for Med school, but is now in a very prestigious residency. For law school I disagree. I think that name schools are usually a waste of money. I do think a degree from the Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Boalt Hall, etc. does have extra value, but usually only if you graduate near the top of your class. I think everyone forgets the bottom 2/3s of the best law schools....from everything I can tell these people do about the same as the others. I know a couple local lawyers that went to Stanford and Harvard...surprisingly they are just about average and don't do better than anyone else. The most successful lawyers (in my area) went to pretty much any random school. One of the richest lawyers I know graduated from an UNACCREDITED LAW SACHOOL! (not recommended, but the successful lawyers are usually entrepreneurs even if they work at a large firm, and this doesn't have that much to do with your education.) I've got young kids, and maybe some of them will want to be attorneys some day (and take over my practice so I can go fishing ) If so, I will recommend the exact thing you recommend for young engineers...pick an affordable State U and let dad pay the tuition!
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Jun 27, 2011 6:48:32 GMT -5
I have not finished reading this thread yet. But WOW. All I can say is- before being allowed to take out a loan for ANYTHING- even CC’s- young people should be forced through some financial classes. Kind of like drivers ED before getting your license! I wish I had!
I thank my lucky stars that I couldn't take out SL's between 18 1/2 and just recently- problems with DH's side of things, so the FAFSA was always rejected until Jan 11' I had no choice but to pay out of pocket. So, I've taken longer to get my degree. I graduated HS in '05- and I am just getting close to the finish line on my bachelors degree. I also owe maybe $2k right now that I can pay off any time I feel like. But, while I hate comparing myself to everyone else and how long things have taken me, I can say that I am in a great financial position compared to them. It's hard- I wish I had my career already, and I wish I had a house, and could progress on in the 'dream life', but maybe taking things slowly upfront will ensure better success in the long run (I hope).
ETA: I never lived at college, I always worked between part and full time and went to school part to full time. I also had a husband that contributed to the household- 2 incomes is such a help. No kids yet, and we've been together for almost 7 years now.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 27, 2011 7:57:08 GMT -5
::IMO, a name-school is important in Law, somewhat important in Medicine, somewhat in B-school - and almost not-at-all in engineering:: I disagree on the importance of a name school in law. It depends on what you want to do, but nobody really cares where I went to school, and I'm doing just fine. I'm not in one of the big name firms in a big city, but frankly, I'd rather run around my parking lot naked and on fire than practice in a place like that. ::I know a couple local lawyers that went to Stanford and Harvard...surprisingly they are just about average and don't do better than anyone else:: One local lawyer who went Ivy is an absolute idiot, and lazy too boot. The other Ivy guy has spent his life doing public interest work. He comes from a wealthy family, so he has that option. ::I've got young kids, and maybe some of them will want to be attorneys some day (and take over my practice so I can go fishing ) If so, I will recommend the exact thing you recommend for young engineers...pick an affordable State U and let dad pay the tuition:: Or get a scholarship from an expensive private college, so it's cheaper than going to a state school.
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philly1
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Post by philly1 on Jun 27, 2011 8:41:51 GMT -5
I don't understand what your saying here. Are you saying $800 for 7 credits is expensive? Using your numbers I come up with roughly $115 a credit. 60 credits x $115 = $6900. Add maybe $2000 for books and your under $10k for 2 years of school. That seems like a great bargain. Have you actually looked at the cost or are you just throwing numbers around? My DD is taking 7 credits at the community college this summer. It cost approx. $800, plus over $200 for books. Our state university is $10K a year for tuition and fees.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Jun 27, 2011 8:48:44 GMT -5
Could Phil weigh in on this aspect???
Quote:I graduated from one of the top engineering schools in the nation, thinking my starting salary would be between $70,000 and $80,000 a year. Quote:Um, Kettering University isn't even among the top engineering programs in Michigan, let alone top overall. The guy could have gotten a more prestigious degree from Michigan, Michigan State or Michigan Tech for a fraction of that $185k. Kettering is a good school and all, but the guys sounds like an idiot. I'm going with 'idiot'. At the engineering corporations that I worked at for 35 yrs, a BS Engineer from an accredited university was fungible - there was very little distinction between a State U engr and an MIT engr, the starting salaries were roughly the same. And after about 3 yrs of experience, your salary was performance-based, the State guy could be the MIT guys boss by then - well, maybe not quite. When we put a man on the moon, we had MS Ivy engrs and "2 yr CC/2 yr State" BS engrs on the same Lunar Landing project making the same money. IMO, a name-school is important in Law, somewhat important in Medicine, somewhat in B-school - and almost not-at-all in engineering. Where I work now (and most of the companies in my industry around here), there is a ridiculous preference by managers who want to hire engineers that are a product of the engineering school they attended. I have seen it firsthand while screening internship canidates. Canidates from X program always get a better look than those from Y, Z or Q. Granted, last year we hired an intern from program Q instead of X, but her work experience was stellar.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 9:11:10 GMT -5
I don't understand what your saying here. Are you saying $800 for 7 credits is expensive? Using your numbers I come up with roughly $115 a credit. 60 credits x $115 = $6900. Add maybe $2000 for books and your under $10k for 2 years of school. That seems like a great bargain. Have you actually looked at the cost or are you just throwing numbers around? My DD is taking 7 credits at the community college this summer. It cost approx. $800, plus over $200 for books. Our state university is $10K a year for tuition and fees. Those number were quoted in addition to the $19K a year at the state u, so you can't get a 4 year degree for under $30K the way Phil keeps claiming. And those costs are for part time. Not sure if there are additional fees for full-time . And that is for our community college. If she were to go to the out-of-county one (which if she were going full-time she would, as the drive to the in-county one is horrendous and I only take her 2 days a week), the cost would nearly double.
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murphath
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Post by murphath on Jun 27, 2011 12:01:35 GMT -5
Ridiculous to pay that kind of money for an undergrad degree!! Our three went to community college first (a deal in Calif--@ $1000 ea for two years) and then to state university (2) and Hawaii (1--on scholarship). We probably paid @ $20,000 ea for the first two kids and @ $24,000 for #3 who will be a senior this year. DD's are now taking on student loan debt for post grad--one in medical school and the other in physical therapy program. Both will be fine as far as employment goes. DD1 will have @ $160,000 to pay off (she was lucky in that she lives at home which has saved her at least $30,000 in room/board/car insurance etc.. DD2 will have @ $80,000 in debt--she worked for four years before returning to school and had saved @ $24,000--that's her room/board money.
I've said this before: people are too into the "status" of these name schools. Frankly, I don't think the education is any better and they certainly don't warrant the outrageous price tag just so mom and dad can brag about where their kid is going to school. Know a couple who "sent" their kids to University of Pacific ($30,000+ per year tuition) and USC (even more expensive!!). One was an English major (and I'm not knocking that--I'm a French major), and the other History. Needless to say, they are both unemployed and horrendously in debt with student loans. Just insane, in my opinion.
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gobermitcheese
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Post by gobermitcheese on Jun 27, 2011 14:21:44 GMT -5
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 27, 2011 15:04:43 GMT -5
I may be the only person who wishes I had commuted in college... living with a bulimic (first year), pot-head (there were plants growing in our closet) (sophomore year), and someone who DID NOT TAKE A SHOWER OR WASH HER SHEETS FOR AN ENTIRE SEMESTER (third year) seriously almost gave me a mental breakdown. I later found out that my junior year roommate (the smelly one) typically went through 3-4 roommates a semester. I should have gotten some kind of medal for making it through a whole year. If I hadn't gotten a single room my senior year, I might have dropped out! Crazy roommates are no joke.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jun 27, 2011 15:06:14 GMT -5
It cost approx. $800, plus over $200 for books. Our state university is $10K a year for tuition and fees. Those number were quoted in addition to the $19K a year at the state u, so you can't get a 4 year degree for under $30K the way Phil keeps claiming. And those costs are for part time. Not sure if there are additional fees for full-time . And that is for our community college. If she were to go to the out-of-county one (which if she were going full-time she would, as the drive to the in-county one is horrendous and I only take her 2 days a week), the cost would nearly double. So if your State U costs $10,000/yr, or $19,000 for two years - and your CC cost $800 for 7 credits, why not pay the $7000 for the 2 yrs at CC and $19,000 for the last 2 years at State? (That's $26,000 total, using your numbers).
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 27, 2011 15:13:05 GMT -5
No Mid, you aren't. I liked my roommate well enough but living in a dorm SUCKED. My first year at Simpson wasn't so bad because we had a really good RA and I lived in the junior/senior dorm. Second year it was just me and my roommate, we couldn't find two more to stay in Buxton.
So we were placed in the catch-all dorm with a mix of all classes and what a nightmare! The kids across the hall partied all night, left beer bottles floating in my toilet, barfed on our floors, I had to chase their girlfriends out, got the police called on them at least three times. It SUCKED.
The RA was sleeping with one them I am pretty sure, she at least partied with them so she would brush off our complaints because it'd mean party was over.
Made me never want to live in a setting where I shared walls with another person as long as I live.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 15:23:19 GMT -5
It cost approx. $800, plus over $200 for books. Our state university is $10K a year for tuition and fees. Those number were quoted in addition to the $19K a year at the state u, so you can't get a 4 year degree for under $30K the way Phil keeps claiming. And those costs are for part time. Not sure if there are additional fees for full-time . And that is for our community college. If she were to go to the out-of-county one (which if she were going full-time she would, as the drive to the in-county one is horrendous and I only take her 2 days a week), the cost would nearly double. So if your State U costs $10,000/yr, or $19,000 for two years - and your CC cost $800 for 7 credits, why not pay the $7000 for the 2 yrs at CC and $19,000 for the last 2 years at State? (That's $26,000 total, using your numbers). ummmm $19K PER YEAR so times 2 years is $38K (gosh that engineering degree comes in handy). Plus the CC, plus all the books. Not to mention that I probably have the only child in history who went off to college without a driver's license. She graduated high school at 16 and didn't turn 17 until a month after she started her freshman year - 300 miles away from home.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 27, 2011 16:53:00 GMT -5
I've noticed some themes to these stories.
The amounts borrowed seem to be much larger than the bare minimum required to get through school. (Cripes, who needs nearly $50K a year as a student? Did you borrow every cent it took to go to college?) (According to the Kettering web site tuition, fees, room, and board currently cost less than $36K a year. It looks like the guy in the story blew through another $40K on other types of spending. College must have been a lot of fun. Want to bet this guy wasn't at the top of his class?)
The degrees obtained are frequently in careers commonly well know for their relatively low compensation levels, such as social services and fine arts.
The people about whom the stories are written are often fairly recent graduates. And they are struggling. Heck, they are young. When you are young you are supposed to struggle a bit. For young people with a new diploma to expect to live the way their parents do after 20 or 30 years of work is a fantasy.
Many of the people profiled have used a variety of techniques to delay making payments on their student loans. And then they act surprised that the balance due has grown. duh!
Several of the profiled graduates present a version of "the country has let me down". Well, my understanding is that this country is known for providing opportunity. But, it doesn't ensure that you will enjoy success when you make a number of poor decisions.
Have students and parents been sold a bill of goods by educators? Maybe. Do these stories provide people with an education that will prevent them from repeating the mistakes of others? Probably not. The type of person who didn't think that something as important and far reaching as choosing a career deserves some effort to research is unlikely to suddenly change their behavior. "Stupid is as stupid does." (Tom Hanks as Forrest Gump).
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 27, 2011 17:07:32 GMT -5
I think asking a 25 year old guy who has been out of school for 2 years and had a hard time finding work, and is disgruntled because he was told a higher salary than was reasonable if he is unhappy financially is probably a little unfair. The first few years working is hard during the best of times, and the graduates of the past 3 years have entered the work force at the worst of times. I wonder how he might feel if he does well, and likes his job and climbs the corporate ladder. In 10 or 15 years, he might think that although the payment is still hanging around, he is happy with his job and his earnings.
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sil
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Post by sil on Jun 27, 2011 17:30:48 GMT -5
I think asking a 25 year old guy who has been out of school for 2 years and had a hard time finding work, and is disgruntled because he was told a higher salary than was reasonable if he is unhappy financially is probably a little unfair. The first few years working is hard during the best of times, and the graduates of the past 3 years have entered the work force at the worst of times. I wonder how he might feel if he does well, and likes his job and climbs the corporate ladder. In 10 or 15 years, he might think that although the payment is still hanging around, he is happy with his job and his earnings. ************************************************************************************************************************ So true! I had about $60k in loans when I got my MBA at the age of 25, and my first job paid about $50k. I had a lot of pity parties for myself in my twenties and I used to lament how people always told me that more education would open doors for me, but instead it seemed like I had fewer open doors because I needed to go for the biggest paycheck available to me in order to pay down debt.
Twelve years later, and I still don't have the option of chucking my job out the window so that I can try to write the Great American Novel, but I also no longer feel like these debts are such a heavy burden. Perhaps it's because I've paid down the loans considerably, and perhaps it's because I've just found heavier burdens to bear.
Then again, if I ever paid 200k for something I can't live in, I'm sure that debt would weigh me down for life.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 28, 2011 9:56:44 GMT -5
I know someone who got a pharmacy degree with $150k on student loans. I nearly barfed up a lung, but then I found out he graduated in the bottom 1/3rd of the class and got a job making $125k his first year. He still works for that same company, although he did stop working the overnight shift after 2 years so his pay may have gone down. He said he banked 50% of his salary for the first year. I don't know what his interest rate.
I'm not sure what his options were before he went to pharmacy school - but now 5 years later - I'm guessing he feels he made the right decision.
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murphath
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Post by murphath on Jun 28, 2011 11:21:23 GMT -5
Quote: I know very few people with 6 figure SLs that made the right choices.
I know someone who got a pharmacy degree with $150k on student loans. I nearly barfed up a lung, but then I found out he graduated in the bottom 1/3rd of the class and got a job making $125k his first year. He still works for that same company, although he did stop working the overnight shift after 2 years so his pay may have gone down. He said he banked 50% of his salary for the first year. I don't know what his interest rate.
I'm not sure what his options were before he went to pharmacy school - but now 5 years later - I'm guessing he feels he made the right decision.
Well, as I stated in my post, my DD's are both pursuing advanced degrees in medical/health field. We paid for their undergrad but they will get their m.d. and doc.of phys.therapy and have large student debt. BUT they will be making very good salaries after graduating and be in a good position to pay them off.
The point is, don't spend so much on the undergrad part. There are ways to get a great education much more inexpensively. Do the borrowing for the post grad--that's usually what will pay off.
To the lady who said Calif. state schools aren't accepting transfer students: you couldn't be more wrong. Both the UC and CSU's WANT transfer students from the community colleges. Why: because they are usually more dedicated, well prepared and have very high graduation rates once they reach the 4 yr. school. Studies have shown that the transfer students graduate at a higher rate than those that began at the 4 yr. school.
Now with that said, if you are trying to transfer to a "name" UC or CSU (think UCLA, Berkeley, San Diego State, Cal Poly San Luis Obsipo), you better have an excellent GPA from the community college. These schools have never done the "guaranteed admission agreements" for CC transfer students--they don't have to because the demand for these schools is so high.
So, most students will do a "guaranteed admission agreement" for a school that does them (in our area that would be UC Davis--a very, very good school) and then apply the normal way to where they really wish to attend. Nine times out of ten, if the GPA is good, they will get in where they want to go.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 28, 2011 11:32:24 GMT -5
So we were placed in the catch-all dorm with a mix of all classes and what a nightmare! The kids across the hall partied all night, left beer bottles floating in my toilet, barfed on our floors, I had to chase their girlfriends out, got the police called on them at least three times. It SUCKED. The RA was sleeping with one them I am pretty sure, she at least partied with them so she would brush off our complaints because it'd mean party was over. Made me never want to live in a setting where I shared walls with another person as long as I live. So you're the bitch that kept calling the cops on us
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2011 12:04:35 GMT -5
SOME degrees are worth the debt but SOME are not. Spending 100k for a 25k a year job is not. If you don't have the brains to know that simple fact, you are too stupid to go to college.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 28, 2011 13:11:41 GMT -5
What if the $25k job turns into a $35k job, which turns into a $50k job, which leads to a $65k job, which leads to a $80k job, which gets you in line for the $100k job, which grows into a $125k job...
That is my situation, although my degree only cost $50k, and my first job was less than $25k.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2011 13:15:21 GMT -5
If you know that is going to happen, then I suppose, you do it but realistically, that rarely happens. Think arts/minimum wage jobs. 25k would be a gift.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 28, 2011 13:18:44 GMT -5
I agree that there are degrees that are much less likely to lead to great success. But, there are plenty of degrees that start out low, and have plenty of upside. Business graduates are a dime-a-dozen, but guess what - all of those people at the top of industry started somewhere.
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