constanz22
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Post by constanz22 on Jun 22, 2011 18:19:35 GMT -5
Constanz, according to the California Penal Code, failing to provide adequate supervision to a minor constitutes neglect, even if no injury has resulted. I think you would be hard-pressed to convince a judge that leaving an 8 year old home alone is somehow providing adequate supervision. CALIFORNIA CODES PENAL CODE SECTION 11165.2(b) "General neglect" means the negligent failure of a person having the care or custody of a child to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, medical care, or supervision where no physical injury to the child has occurred.” Further, the law defines a minor as any person under the age of 18 (section 11165). With an older child, you could make a legitimate case that calling to check in or having a neighbor keep an eye does constitute adequate supervision. But an 8 year old? I'm very well aware of the definition of neglect. Thanks for proving my point though. Nowhere in your quoted statute does it state a magic age where it's ok to leave your child alone, exactly my point. If it's neglect to leave any "minor" without adequate supervision, then nobody under 18 should legally be left alone, right? That's what your statute says... Like I said, it is determined on a case by case basis in most states. And, if you re-read my post, I said that personally I don't think it's appropriate to leave an 8 year old home alone, but, I was responding to your post that it's "illegal". It is not. Again, I also stated that as long as nothing goes wrong, the chances of it being considered "neglectful" to the point of it meeting the criteria of being criminal neglect or CPS neglect are slim to none. It's the case when you leave the 8 year old home alone and he burns the house down, assaults a neighbor child, kills the cat, falls out the window and breaks his arm, etc., that it would come to the attention of authorities and be considered "neglect". I've been in the field for 20 years and I'm talking from experience how it works in the real world.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 22, 2011 18:49:19 GMT -5
<< I'm very well aware of the definition of neglect. Thanks for proving my point though. Nowhere in your quoted statute does it state a magic age where it's ok to leave your child alone, exactly my point. >> It doesn't have to state a magic age, Constanz. Failing to provide adequate supervision to a minor is considered general neglect, and general neglect is a crime. That's why it is included in the penal code. The burden is on the parent or custodian to prove that adequate supervision was provided. I suspect that is exactly why there is no magic age other than 18. Again, going to be hard to show that an 8 year old home alone is adequately supervised. You have already said you think that is too young, I have no doubt any judge will agree with you. << If it's neglect to leave any "minor" without adequate supervision, then nobody under 18 should legally be left alone, right? That's what your statute says...>> I didn't write the statute, so I'm not interested in defending it. << And, if you re-read my post, I said that personally I don't think it's appropriate to leave an 8 year old home alone, but, I was responding to your post that it's "illegal". It is not. >> General neglect of a minor child most certainly is illegal. << Again, I also stated that as long as nothing goes wrong, the chances of it being considered "neglectful" to the point of it meeting the criteria of being criminal neglect or CPS neglect are slim to none. It's the case when you leave the 8 year old home alone and he burns the house down, assaults a neighbor child, kills the cat, falls out the window and breaks his arm, etc., that it would come to the attention of authorities and be considered "neglect". >> Of course if nothing goes wrong it will likely not come to anyone's attention. So what? That doesn't make it any less dangerous or neglectful. And again, the law specifically says neglect is neglect even if no physical injury occurs. << I've been in the field for 20 years and I'm talking from experience how it works in the real world >> Oh, if you want to state that in your experience, no one is going to bother to investigate or do a darn thing about it, that may very well be so. However, just because no one bothers to intervene or prosecute does not make neglect legal. If I rob a bank and don't get caught, I have still committed a crime. It wasn't legal simply because I was not caught.
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constanz22
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Post by constanz22 on Jun 22, 2011 18:57:36 GMT -5
Since we are quoting statutes...from the NY OCFS official website: "OCFS is often asked questions regarding the appropriate age to leave a child alone, or what age is appropriate to allow a child to begin babysitting. There are no straightforward answers to these questions. All children develop at their own rate, and with their own special needs and abilities. Some children are responsible, intelligent, and independent enough to be left alone at 12 or 13 years of age. Likewise, there are some teenagers who are too irresponsible or who have special needs that limit their ability to be safe if they are left alone. Parents and guardians need to make intelligent, reasoned decisions regarding these matters.
Below there are some items for these decision-makers to consider before leaving a child alone. Be aware, this is just the beginning of issues to consider. It is not an all-inclusive checklist to guarantee intelligent and reasoned decision-making:
•Consider the child: How mature is the child? How comfortable is the child with the circumstances? What has the child done in the past to show you he/she is able to take on this kind of responsibility? •Consider the child’s knowledge and ability: Does the child know how and when to contact emergency help? Is the child able to prepare food for him/herself? Are there hazards to the child in the environment such as accessible knives, power tools, a stove or oven? •Consider the circumstances: Where will the child be when left alone? How long is the child to be alone? These same questions should be asked when considering whether a child is old enough to baby-sit. However, when considering a child as an adequate baby sitter, you must evaluate these factors for both the potential baby sitter as well as the needs of the child or children who will be cared for by the baby sitter. A child of 12 might be fine alone for two hours in an afternoon. Yet, the same child may be incapable of responsibly caring for a 5-year-old for that same period of time."
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 22, 2011 19:15:23 GMT -5
Constanz, I quoted California statutes because the OP lives in California. Thank you for providing NY statutes, I find them interesting. It seems NY also does not choose a magic age but prefers a case by case approach. It does state that *some* children as young as 12 or 13 will be OK left home alone, and that *some* teenagers are not mature enough to be left home alone. I think it would be logical to conclude that NY would not consider it OK for a child of 8 to be left home alone. It kind of looks like guidelines though not actual laws, but if those are the state worker's guidelines it would make sense the law supports those guidelines. Is NY your state? If so, perhaps you can clarify. This site says that 4 states (Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina) are OK with an 8 year old child being left home alone. I find that shocking. www.latchkey-kids.com/latchkey-kids-age-limits.htm
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constanz22
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Post by constanz22 on Jun 22, 2011 19:18:23 GMT -5
I live in PA but work in NY, but have worked in both states and both have similar policies. It is only a mandatory state report if a child under 6 is home alone. A little shocking, I agree...
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 22, 2011 19:24:03 GMT -5
I was left alone at 8, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it. And my mom didn't like leaving my brother alone til he was 15 or 16, or even then Back to the OP, I agree with setting aside some money for your DS, but also agree with QoCC that it should be in a form other than a savings account he can drain at any time. Maybe talk with him about it a bit and see what he wants with it - a car, college, etc. He might be a little young, but you can keep it an ongoing conversation. And you don't need to cut off his access, but just try to instill that this money is for his future - it's essentially part of his father's legacy, and also yours for raising him alone. (My sympathies to you and your DS, by the way.) I don't think it should just be, "You're 18, here's $75K" because that very rarely ends well. My sister was good friends with a girl whose father had died when she was 13. He left a hefty trust fund ($250K - and I know this only because that girl told everyone and their mother, which was mistake #1). She and my sister are both 20 now, still acquaintances, and according to my sister, that money is gone. She spent some of it, and she dated a user who spent the rest Anyway, I'm sure your son will be fine - just a cautionary tale. I do think it's wonderful that you're setting money aside for him.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Jun 23, 2011 8:03:49 GMT -5
I was also left alone at 8 after school and I don't recommend it. From 2nd grade on, I was expected to get myself to and from school and be home alone for 3-4 hours until my mom got home from work over an hour away. There were other kids running wild in the neighborhood, so I don't think it was that unusual in the suburbs of NYC in the 1970's but looking back I still can't imagine what our parents were thinking.
When my oldest was in 1st grade, we started working on the kids practicing being alone in the house for short periods of time. We lived in a very safe small town at that time and I could see the post office, bank, hardware store & pizza shop from the front porch. I would run an errand to one of those places on a Saturday afternoon leaving the kids with strict instructions to stay sitting on the couch watching cartoons until I got back (5-15 minutes). By 2nd grade (about 8), they were mature enough for me to go to the grocery store or the library about a mile away with my cell phone and be gone for 1/2 hour or so. During the day with a neighbor home next door. I dropped them off at school in the AM and they went to after school care or we had a teenager come to the house until my DD was in 6th grade. By that time, she was babysitting occasionally for other children for short periods of time not late at night and the kids called me immediately when they arrived home and there were neighbors home they could call on if they needed anything. Both of my kids took the Red Cross babysitter course and first aid course as soon as they were old enough.
Being a single parent, I was concerned about leaving the kids alone and if it was illegal, but I was assured by a police officer that as long as they were demonstrating appropriate maturity and we were taking reasonable safety precautions and they were not alone for great lengths of time that it was pretty common and not illegal.
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Jun 23, 2011 9:34:15 GMT -5
jenr.. in regards to:
"Daycare $407.00 ($375 10 mo per year and $565 remaining 2)"
have you investigated to see if your employer offers a dependent care "pre-tax" account as part of it's employee benefits.... if so, you could set aside amounts "pre-tax"... yes, there is a dependent care credit, so what is better comes down to the math.... generally, if you can set aside (and spend) the 4800ish you note, the pre tax account is probably better than the tax credit...this strategy may free up a few extra dollars per paycheck.....
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Post by commentator on Jun 24, 2011 9:50:27 GMT -5
Just one general note. Police officers are not attorneys and their legal "advice" is not binding on themselves or on other government agencies.
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