Famed plane, Liberty Bell..Gone..sad

[deziloooooo]

Just picked this up, from of all things..Pravda werb page..the restored WW2, B-17.."Liberty bell, apaprently had a emergency landing in a Iowa corn field , then was destroyed by fire, all seven crew,passengers escaped un hurt, a good thing, but the destruction of the famed airoplane is Sad after all this time, 65 years..IMHO.

By being flown to air shows throughout the country it gave those who were not born a idea of what it took to win that terrible war and the sacrifices of their grand and great grand parents during that time, a link to them and the rest of the 'greatest generation "

R.I. P..... Liberty Bell

english.pravda.ru/photo/album/6275/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Belle_(B-17_Flying_Fortress)

[wyouser]

If you ever had the opportunity to tour inside this aircraft you would come away with a greater appreciation of what it took for the young men of that time to crawl inside that aircraft and fly into combat. It may have been labled a flying forttress, but the aluminum skin on a B-17 offered about as much protection from enemy fire as being in a beer can.

[deziloooooo]

Jun 17, 2011 15:01:38 GMT -5 wyouser said:

If you ever had the opportunity to tour inside this aircraft you would come away with a greater appreciation of what it took for the young men of that time to crawl inside that aircraft and fly into combat. It may have been labled a flying forttress, but the aluminum skin on a B-17 offered about as much protection from enemy fire as being in a beer can.

Galveston has a old Plane museum and a working , flying B-17 there, or at least when I was living there for three years..I toured it a few times , was with in five feet of it in the Display hanger, talked with a fella, guide, he was a gunner on one during the War..never got to go inside though.

Remember him saying so cold except when the enemy was about , then no thought of the cold...

I thought after wards , I always had this question, since they flew in such tight formations..so all guns could cover each other..did they ever get into a situaion where the .50's of one would hit a friendly..the range of a .50 is considerable, and in movies of actual fighting from the gun positions, as they tried to hit the enemy coming in at high 200's / low 300's or more MPH..their concentraion and having to conserve ammo, only carried so much per gun..I would think that would be a problem but never heard that poblem mentioned.

Possible I will google.

[wyouser]

There is a black and white film clip that shows a bomber fyling under the bomber with the camera just as the bombs were released...the bombs took the entire right wing off the one below. I would assume flying in close formation and under attack that there was damage and loss due to friendly fire.

[wyouser]

Glad you were thinking while looking through the Pravda material. This is a good post

[deziloooooo]

Jun 17, 2011 16:52:44 GMT -5 wyouser said:

There is a black and white film clip that shows a bomber fyling under the bomber with the camera just as the bombs were released...the bombs took the entire right wing off the one below. I would assume flying in close formation and under attack that there was damage and loss due to friendly fire.

I've seen that many time...you know there are losses in those raids, just watched a History channel..last night in fact on Bombers, the Brits under Bomber Harris and ours..and the campaign in the Pacific with the B-29.

They first started to get great results, about 3 % , acceptable losses, means a lot of the air crews would be able to get their 25 missions in..but then, once started to go beyond fighter coverage, Belgium was as far as fighters could go, the loses were staggering , 16/17 %...men would never get beyond 16 missions before being all gone, yet they continued till Sweinfort , Ball Bearings and another place, forgot the name, where the planes were being made for the Germans, and then Eisenhower changed the mission, needed the bombers to soften up France for the invasion..three months of reprieve from German bombing, and then the P-51's with drop tanks came in..1600 miles and beyond..the losses back to 3 %.

Same with Japan, I didn't know that..Japanese defense was very strong, plus the planes by flying at 30,000 ft, the Jet stream came into play and even with radar bomb sites, less then 10 % hits and heavy losses..till new commander, brought bombing down to 10,000 ceiling, incendiaries mixed with heavy bombs...even took out the MG and crews to carry more bombs...

The thinking was the B-29 ultimate bomber..nothing could stop it..was not true. Same with the B-17 , B-24 , thought they could go and do it alone with out fighter escort--found out the hard way, couldn't be done.

[wyouser]

Was a good thing the war in Europe ended before the Me 262 got into mass production. Losses would have gone back up until a counter would have been developed. There is a statement by a German fighter pilot from the "Green Hearts" squadron in his book "Alert in the West" where he describes a mission in the last days of the war. He was loaded with experimental air to air rockets which he wrote worked phenominally well as he could attack without getting anywhere close to the bomber fleet and their escorts. When he landed he told his superiors to have the plane reloaded with them. He was told there wernt anymore as they were the only prototypes in existence.

[deziloooooo]

Jun 17, 2011 17:30:40 GMT -5 wyouser said:

Was a good thing the war in Europe ended before the Me 262 got into mass production. Losses would have gone back up until a counter would have been developed. There is a statement by a German fighter pilot from the "Green Hearts" squadron in his book "Alert in the West" where he describes a mission in the last days of the war. He was loaded with experimental air to air rockets which he wrote worked phenominally well as he could attack without getting anywhere close to the bomber fleet and their escorts. When he landed he told his superiors to have the plane reloaded with them. He was told there wernt anymore as they were the only prototypes in existence.

That was another thing Der Furer stuck his nose into and made a decision on that helped us and hurt them..

He pushed for a bomber instead of a fighter on the Jet....which wasted years..

he actually was our best weapon..

Decisions he made..stop going after the airfields and radars of the Brits in the battle of Britain, go for the cities.

Not allowing the Army to pull back at Stallingrad

Kursk

Going into Russia in the first place, he had a deal with the Russians, they , Russians loved it, loved it, they were supplying him with food, oil all types and he didn't have to have Armys tied up in the East.

Normandy, didn't allow his Panzers to move while Allies were still tied up on the Beach..kept thinking Normandy a feint..a feint all those ships, men..what a feint, still waiting for the big one at calais..

Didn't reinforce Rommel in Africa..didn't allow him to pull out his troops when the hand writing was on the wall..save armies.

Did the thing with the Jews..all those Physisists who left Germany, Physics in his mind a Jewish Science..what ever the hell that meant.

When they went into the Ukraine, other territories, Germans were welcomed as all hated Stalin and what he had done to them, a natural allie till they started shooting them..

Battle of the Bulge..no one left to slow down allies..turn East with the Russians..


I am sure there were many more...but those were his dicisions...major ones..great decisions for us that is.

[Mad Dawg Wiccan]

The thinking was the B-52 ultimate bomber..nothing could stop it..was not true.

I think you mean the B-29.


Sad about this B-17 going down. There's a B-17 that comes out here every Mother's Day so you can give your mother a gift of a ride in it. I doubt my mother would appreciate it much, since she lost her home in a B-17 raid in 1944.

[deziloooooo]

Jun 20, 2011 14:19:54 GMT -5 Mad Dawg Wiccan said:

The thinking was the B-52 ultimate bomber..nothing could stop it..was not true.

I think you mean the B-29.


Sad about this B-17 going down. There's a B-17 that comes out here every Mother's Day so you can give your mother a gift of a ride in it. I doubt my mother would appreciate it much, since she lost her home in a B-17 raid in 1944.

"I think you mean the B-29.

Good catch..yep, B-29

I am sure your Mom would not enjoy such a ride..Civilians were hit so bad in that war, with the Brits Bomber Harris was one of the senior Brit Commanders who did not get the highest recognition, knighted and all, after the War, because of how many felt he handled his role regarding the bombing of civiliens.

Though it is interesting , until Dresden no one suggested he curtail the attacks..Dresden, had really nothing to do with the War effort though Harris said it was a transportation hub, it wasn't and by that time, there were no more military , even secondary ones to bomb to speak of.

After Dresden, Brits kind of stood down on the bombing till end of the war..

[Mad Dawg Wiccan]

The town my mother lived in at the time had utterly no strategic importance. It was hit mostly because it had never been hit before.

How the times have changed, where it is the Americans who take the most care that innocent civilians are the least targeted.

[wyouser]

levelling entire cities was supposed to break the moral and will to resist of the other side. It was also to interrupt production of war materials. The Germans were never able to break the will of the British to carry on the war throught indescriminate bombing...interestingly enough our carpet bombing of cities didnt break the German will to resist either.Nor did production cease until we physically occupied the [production centers. The numbers of civillian casualties were staggering.